I just don't get it.

[Mael-bess]

snip

I'm a little confused, but bear with me as i've started the game around 2 months. So what do you mean players who started 2 months ago could catch up to you? You mean gear wise? shouldn't they be able to (not in 2 months but eventually)? I mean wouldn't it be bad for a game if players that are around for a long time would have a huge advantage over more recent players, everyone should be able to be at an equal standing with some effort, regardless when they started to playing.

I for one i'm no where close to have\achiev what you have, and somethings i'll never be able to get that you have. I agree that you should have something special for playing the game that long other than a tattoo, isn't that what veteran awards are for?

[Nutz]

I for one i'm no where close to have\achiev what you have, and somethings i'll never be able to get that you have. I agree that you should have something special for playing the game that long other than a tattoo, isn't that what veteran awards are for?

I suppose veteran rewards are for that, though they're also meaningless glamour/ mounts/ etc. I think what melisande was getting at was the fact that in previous MMOs something like a relic weapon might have taken even longer to get, but would have lasting value. The way it's implemented in this game unless you quickly grind it out immediately it's either outdated or close to it by the time you get it, nevermind 6 months down the line.

In one of several efforts to make this game accessible to new players the devs neglected to make any items give a lasting advantage, and it's difficult to see how they could given the state of itemization. For a weapon to be useful one year from now it would have to be insanely powerful today -- objectively and significantly more powerful than anything else out there. Even so, 2 years form now it would be trash because all we really have to make weapons powerful are weapon damage and main stat and those things are constantly climbing.

To have items that can be useful even after new items have been introduced you need to slow down the power creep and add more interesting stats.

FFXI had a wonderful assortment of stats (IMO). One of the most sought after weapons in the game had very low damage, but due to other game mechanics and the unique properties of the item people still wanted it several years after release, even after level cap increases (referring to the kraken club in case you were wondering -- occasionally attacked 2-8 times). There's room for much more interesting stats that could make gear last longer if they'd also stop increasing main stat numbers so dramatically.

I'm not even advocating that they slow down on releasing gear really, just saying that it's not necessary for every other patch to include definite upgrades for every single slot on every single job. Of course, you really could get by with less gear added overall. I never quite understood the very rigid gear set structure that they use, but I suppose it's just another layer of accessibility (ie. as a tank everything 'of fending' is for me, and maybe some 'of slaying' stuff sometimes, and nothing else ever).

[Welsper59]

I'm not even advocating that they slow down on releasing gear really, just saying that it's not necessary for every other patch to include definite upgrades for every single slot on every single job. Of course, you really could get by with less gear added overall. I never quite understood the very rigid gear set structure that they use, but I suppose it's just another layer of accessibility (ie. as a tank everything 'of fending' is for me, and maybe some 'of slaying' stuff sometimes, and nothing else ever).

At this point in the game, at least until they give a HUGE heads up on revamping the system, it is absolutely mandatory that they keep going up on the ilvl. The players, unbeknownst to themselves, have an expectation in regards to content and reward. We want content to be harder and give us worthwhile rewards. No ones going to find it worth their time and effort to run through Savage just so that their a drop from it might offer a better ratio of a secondary stat for one job, while the rest might get something worse or just outright pointless.

Ignoring the fact that FFXI was not gear-locked in combat, the only reason XI got away with so much diversity with gear was because of how situational each piece was. If you were trying to be good at the game, you didn't stick to your WS set while you were trying to TP build. You didn't leave your Fast Cast gear on by mid-cast. No, you would macro a switch of gear to benefit from the wide array of stats that benefit you. In other words, that gear you macro generally sees action for a second or two when you do something related to it. Sometimes, you wouldn't even see it on your character by the time it swaps out lol. Not exactly material to be "cherished" outside of the numbers it represents.

We don't have anything like that because this game is not designed to handle that. Even if they did introduce side gear to remove that definitive upgrade next patch, absolutely no one with any sense of logic would find it to be truly worth their time if it were locked behind something like Savage. They would have to literally redo the entire stat system in order to introduce worthwhile side gear options. Even then, it'll come down to a singular BiS system without the ability to swap gear mid-combat. So along with that, they'd have to redo it so that we'd be playing FFXI, basically. WoW had a wide array of fun/useful/useless stats on their gear, but just like here, it came down to one BiS set. Alternative gearing only existed outside of endgame there, which is why FFXI essentially perfected horizontal gear progression.

If what you meant was that the upgrades were miniscule, then that absolutely would not work with the current system. If 6 months for the next tier of max ilvl isn't long enough to cherish your gear, then what realistically is? Why would anyone bother spending their time doing new content enough to last until the next cycle, when the difference with the new and old stuff is negligible?

Edit: This got cut off and its a rather important part to the tone of this lol. If what you were saying was encompassing your mention of adding interesting stats in order to keep gear relevant, then yeah, I totally agree obviously. It's just that based on the way you were arguing the subject, it sounds like you were looking at one being separable from the other, which is something I don't agree with.

[Nutz]

Edit: This got cut off and its a rather important part to the tone of this lol. If what you were saying was encompassing your mention of adding interesting stats in order to keep gear relevant, then yeah, I totally agree obviously. It's just that based on the way you were arguing the subject, it sounds like you were looking at one being separable from the other, which is something I don't agree with.

I was merely addressing each issue, though they're interconnected. You got the idea though. With more interesting stats they could slow down a bit on the release of gear and we could hold on to it a bit longer (even with potential upgrades being released).

Even though a lot of FFXI's stats were used in very specific situations, I think many would translate well here. You could have stats to reduce TP/MP costs/ increase TP/MP gains, various damage modifiers (ie. mobs take 5% more damage while under the effect of thunder, GL stacks deal 10 potency per stack to all enemies within area of effect), various ability modifiers (ie. 10% chance wrath stacks are not spent, Hallowed Ground makes you absorb damage rather than just negate it), double/ triple attack, occasionally deal double damage. Really anyone could think of tons of things from slightly advantageous to very effective that they could put on armor/ weapons that would be a lot more interesting than +15 STR.

[Welsper59]

I was merely addressing each issue, though they're interconnected. You got the idea though. With more interesting stats they could slow down a bit on the release of gear and we could hold on to it a bit longer (even with potential upgrades being released).

Even though a lot of FFXI's stats were used in very specific situations, I think many would translate well here. You could have stats to reduce TP/MP costs/ increase TP/MP gains, various damage modifiers (ie. mobs take 5% more damage while under the effect of thunder, GL stacks deal 10 potency per stack to all enemies within area of effect), various ability modifiers (ie. 10% chance wrath stacks are not spent, Hallowed Ground makes you absorb damage rather than just negate it), double/ triple attack, occasionally deal double damage. Really anyone could think of tons of things from slightly advantageous to very effective that they could put on armor/ weapons that would be a lot more interesting than +15 STR.

The only issue is that special secondary stats, while certainly a step in the right direction, is a short sighted fix with our current combat restrictions (i.e. the inability to swap gear mid-combat). That's why I mentioned the example of WoW, and how despite having some alternatives in non-endgame during its earlier years, it is still the same BiS situation that we have right now here.

Player combat is not so intricate to the point that situational gear needs would be a thing. That is, unless fights were created under the basis of needing situational gear.. which, in all honesty, would absolutely backfire. Like mandating your mentioned TP/MP affecting equips because the boss has abilities that drain them. While that would be a new idea for this game (old school to any XI players), the fact they're required is where the backfire begins (and certainly does not end there). I mean, people here got into the biggest fuss over the idea that endgame raid tiers have the audacity to require better gear as you progress through them. At any rate though, as I said, the inability to gearswap is the biggest roadblock to having a prosperous means of horizontal gear progression.

Horizontal gear acquisition in FFXI is both a gift and a curse. It made that equip that you spent months or years (literally) trying to get worth the effort, but it also made endgame into more of an actual job than anything else (old school MMORPGs at their finest). It'd be best to not take that too far, but it's inevitable that it will at some point. I guess what they COULD do, however, is introduce a means to further raise your current gear with augments... sort of like WoWs version, but this will actually raise the ilvl of your current gear. I don't think that'd go over well though, assuming 1 year is too long for one set of armor to be worn lol. That is part of the point isn't it? To have your gear that you worked towards getting be useful for longer.

Let's not forget our current inventory woes though lol. There's a lot they need to adjust before horizontal gearing can be a thing really.

[Shurrikhan]

The only issue is that special secondary stats, while certainly a step in the right direction, is a short sighted fix with our current combat restrictions (i.e. the inability to swap gear mid-combat). That's why I mentioned the example of WoW, and how despite having some alternatives in non-endgame during its earlier years, it is still the same BiS situation that we have right now here.

Player combat is not so intricate to the point that situational gear needs would be a thing. That is, unless fights were created under the basis of needing situational gear.. which, in all honesty, would absolutely backfire. Like mandating your mentioned TP/MP affecting equips because the boss has abilities that drain them. While that would be a new idea for this game (old school to any XI players), the fact they're required is where the backfire begins (and certainly does not end there). I mean, people here got into the biggest fuss over the idea that endgame raid tiers have the audacity to require better gear as you progress through them. At any rate though, as I said, the inability to gearswap is the biggest roadblock to having a prosperous means of horizontal gear progression.

Horizontal gear acquisition in FFXI is both a gift and a curse. It made that equip that you spent months or years (literally) trying to get worth the effort, but it also made endgame into more of an actual job than anything else (old school MMORPGs at their finest). It'd be best to not take that too far, but it's inevitable that it will at some point. I guess what they COULD do, however, is introduce a means to further raise your current gear with augments... sort of like WoWs version, but this will actually raise the ilvl of your current gear. I don't think that'd go over well though, assuming 1 year is too long for one set of armor to be worn lol. That is part of the point isn't it? To have your gear that you worked towards getting be useful for longer.

Let's not forget our current inventory woes though lol. There's a lot they need to adjust before horizontal gearing can be a thing really.

I'll admit straight-off that although I like the idea of horizontal gearing, the combat-gear-swaps doesn't seem remotely horizontal to me. It just seems like a snakier vertical path. If you don't have the gear set, even if of equal or lesser ilvl, that allows you to maximize a given ability, your overall stat-derived output is suboptimal. To say nothing of the idea of swapping outfits every 1-12 seconds--how does that work.. are we all just wearing stat-ed holograms?--aesthetically, it kill any actual sense of options or compromise even more than XIV's model. You either have the perfect manipulator, or you don't. And if you don't, you'd best go get it. Sure, there may be an average best answer for a particular fight even when able to choose your stats only before a fight starts, but at least that has a difference in dynamics. The alternative just slaps on bits and pieces until you have neither relative strength or weakness--just completion, within availability. If that's what horizontal gearing aims for, then I've no interest. I want meaningful stats, not niched ones.

If you want to see progressive, meaningful stats in action, (with little to no niche-ing) look no further than WoW's Hunters, Fury, Arms, Feral, Ret, Fire, etc. They were admittedly balancing nightmares, many of them starting weak early game and crushingly powerful later on as their proc-related secondary stats rose into serious percentiles, but your stats could actually influence your rotation or priorities. Some stats had particular plateaus, and others just messed with the gamble of the button flow, but either way they were noticeable. In XIV, the only real gameplay adjusters are Crit for Bard (gamble) and Speed for everyone else (plateau). That said, while XIV secondary stats certainly suffer from oversights (Skill Speed being split from Spell Speed, draining more TP for a lesser to near-equal dps contribution than Det/Crit, devaluing AAs and oGCDs, eventually preventing proper oGCD weaving), the lackluster stat-gameplay interaction has almost entirely to do with class design and internal mechanics rather than the stats themselves. I wonder if any changes might be made in that regard in the future, or if going from 3.4 to 4.0 will have changes merely on the level of a 3s-extended Phlebotomize and Demolish, again.

And indeed, before we can even think of amassing a horde of near-equally relevant gear, we would first need some solution to our inventory issues.

[Welsper59]

I'll admit straight-off that although I like the idea of horizontal gearing, the combat-gear-swaps doesn't seem remotely horizontal to me. It just seems like a snakier vertical path. If you don't have the gear set, even if of equal or lesser ilvl, that allows you to maximize a given ability, your overall stat-derived output is suboptimal. To say nothing of the idea of swapping outfits every 1-12 seconds--how does that work.. are we all just wearing stat-ed holograms?--aesthetically, it kill any actual sense of options or compromise even more than XIV's model. You either have the perfect manipulator, or you don't. And if you don't, you'd best go get it. Sure, there may be an average best answer for a particular fight even when able to choose your stats only before a fight starts, but at least that has a difference in dynamics. The alternative just slaps on bits and pieces until you have neither relative strength or weakness--just completion, within availability. If that's what horizontal gearing aims for, then I've no interest. I want meaningful stats, not niched ones.

If you want to see progressive, meaningful stats in action, (with little to no niche-ing) look no further than WoW's Hunters, Fury, Arms, Feral, Ret, Fire, etc. They were admittedly balancing nightmares, many of them starting weak early game and crushingly powerful later on as their proc-related secondary stats rose into serious percentiles, but your stats could actually influence your rotation or priorities. Some stats had particular plateaus, and others just messed with the gamble of the button flow, but either way they were noticeable. In XIV, the only real gameplay adjusters are Crit for Bard (gamble) and Speed for everyone else (plateau). That said, while XIV secondary stats certainly suffer from oversights (Skill Speed being split from Spell Speed, draining more TP for a lesser to near-equal dps contribution than Det/Crit, devaluing AAs and oGCDs, eventually preventing proper oGCD weaving), the lackluster stat-gameplay interaction has almost entirely to do with class design and internal mechanics rather than the stats themselves. I wonder if any changes might be made in that regard in the future, or if going from 3.4 to 4.0 will have changes merely on the level of a 3s-extended Phlebotomize and Demolish, again.

And indeed, before we can even think of amassing a horde of near-equally relevant gear, we would first need some solution to our inventory issues.

Unfortunately in your case, that actually is what the general idea of horizontal gearing falls to. The niche stats to assist gear you currently have, thus keeping old gear relevant while also making you want the new stuff. So while there is still a BiS system in place, your old gear does still remain relevant for a period of time without being replaced so quickly.

I can certainly appreciate your preferred idea on the matter, with stats varying how you play in general, but we (the players) don't allow such things to really be. Balance, for example, is a frontline concern. If it doesn't perform optimally at all times, it generally isn't looked at fondly, such as 3.0 AST. Special stats tend to also cause huge balance issues, and for a game like XIV, that's a rather large concern and probably why we don't have them. Then we have the min/max approach, which carries over to "best" and "optimal" degrees of play. We will find what works best, and given our tendencies in XIV (surprisingly more than some other games), that will be seen as the only option.

Your mentioning of class design is ABSOLUTELY something of warrant to criticize. It works for the most part with what we have now, but what we have is relatively bland. Been done a million times sort of feel. It's fine for a good while, but it does start to get stale the more we deal with it. I'd imagine rotations will continue to change though for some, so that will help along the way, but there needs to be a bit of an overhaul to aesthetics and effects (stat wise) somewhere down the road.

[Gardes]

I for one i'm no where close to have\achiev what you have, and somethings i'll never be able to get that you have. I agree that you should have something special for playing the game that long other than a tattoo, isn't that what veteran awards are for?

I'm pretty sure they meant things they have achieved IN the game, not trivial items that you get JUST for being around longer than someone. By your logic, you could be playing for 6 months while I pay for the subs for 1 year but not play any of the game and log in on the last month, get close to your ilvl in that one month and consider myself having achieved more than you did.