A mid-core content for mid-core players.

[Critical-Limit]

I love the punishment ideas. People keep thinking worse case scenario full wipe everytime. But the OP even mentioned pheonix down use.

Not everyone hates punishment. Sure the act of punishment sucks. But the tense feeling you get knowing that harsh punish is around the corner is a plus to my fun. If this never worked horror games that punish you hard for a single mistake would fail. But there are people who enjoy that "tense" feeling like death could happen at anytime if you aren't fully paying attention.

[Vieilocean]

Farming doesn't actually work this way, though. Even if you put together a team of 8 people that can you know can clear the content, often there's small differences in strategy that can lead to a couple of wipes before you get everything worked out. The fact that the dungeon makes you start completely over from the beginning makes even a single misstep catastrophic to not only the run but the entire group. I dunno about you, but if I went to do content like this and after hours of slogging through trash the group wiped to something stupid at the boss rendering my entry fee effectively wasted, I'd just bail. The fact that there are rewards for killing trash is immaterial to me as anyone can go into content and kill trash, even if it's gimmicky trash that's more organized than usual. I don't typically go into a dungeon to do the first boss and then leave. The only time I would is if I'm farming some particular glamour piece, and honestly in 2 years in this game I've done this exactly once.

As far as suggestions go, you honestly haven't seemed very receptive toward input from the beginning so why would we? You stomp in here to vehemently defend your idea every single time you reply. Why would we bother making suggestions on how to change it when you can't even accept basic criticism without being aggressive in your replies?

First: when in the whole thread I offended someone, I always been polite and accepted suggestions from everyone that has not began the reply with "Dead on arrival, cause no 100% clear or poor rewards". Have you seen the content that Vidrian proposed at least?

Second: now you have posted a constructive reply. Yes, it can be frustrating the first times but with the achievement system (or a similar one), I hope you have read that point, the ones that wanna farm can do specific and organized parties, while the ones that wanna enter and farm the first trashes can do other parties. Freedom.

The fact that you have glamour items as its only reward limits its appeal from the get-go. I know plenty of midcore to hardcore raiders that don't even bother glamouring their characters; they just go around with their equipment looking however because they're only interested in progression. So automatically, you eliminate them as people that would be interested in the content. Why would they go bother doing the content if there's no reward in it that interests them? If you make the glamour items too hard to get, then people will simply use other items. If the same items drop from the trash as from the bosses, people won't even bother trying to clear it. They'll just go in, nuke trash, and then leave. Tome rewards aren't very helpful either as it would probably be faster and more efficient to just farm tomes from content that doesn't charge you an entry fee in the very currency you're trying to farm.

As I replied before, it's useless to reply on this matter. We have a total different point of view on this. I respect your opinion but I do not share it.

[Claymore65]

I'll be fully honest, this doesn't really seem "midcore" at all, nor something most players would be interested in. It's primarily due to certain factors:

1. Kicked out of an instance in a wipe: Why is this a major "feature" of the area? Nowhere else in the game (that I'm aware of) does the game force you out of the instance like this, and with good reason. Part of the idea behind ALL content is that, with enough time and effort, you can learn the content, get better at it, and eventually defeat it. Yet, only for this supposedly "midcore" challenge, you have to re-do the entire instance if you fail at a single part. It doesn't add anything to the "difficulty" of the content, it only adds needless frustration. "Woops, healers ate an AOE, I guess we have to re-do the last 7 quests now" is not something most, if any players would enjoy. It really only wastes time, since you can't learn the content without slogging through the entire thing. It's one thing to start a boss fight from the beginning, this is completely different.

This makes completing the boss nearly impossible, especially if the boss is particularly difficult. Not only do you have to slog your way through 10 possibly long and involved quests to get to the fight, but you also have to beat it in one try or you have to re-do literally all of the 10 quests AND lose tomes. If the boss wasn't particularly difficult, that might be fine. But according to this it's "EX Primal difficulty", which is completely ridiculous. EX Primals let you re-try the content instantly on a wipe, as many times as you like, with no real downside, especially not re-doing an entire 10 quests in a (presumably) large instanced area. There's also the difficulty of designing an epic, "EX Primal like fight" for content that most people won't even be able to reach in the first place. It would be a complete waste of resources, and a major waste of time for most players. More critically, anything that relies even partially on knowledge of the fight (as you suggest the final boss and sub-bosses should be), this requirement significantly hurts. If you have to re-do the entire instance because you don't know one of 11 parts extremely well...most people just won't re-do it. They'll just quit.

2. Puggable? : Explain once again how this content is puggable? It has a lot of factors that make it incredibly hard to pug. First off, this sounds like a very long instance. 10 quests plus an EX primal level fight is going to take a long time. Content which requires a long time to get done is much better done with statics, or FCs. That way players know they can trust each other (to a degree at least), and more critically they can plan time in their schedule to run long content. Even Diadem was only 1.5 hours (and is even shorter now). If I understand, this sounds more like a 3 hour challenge, and thus something you can't just start randomly. The extremely high difficulty as well makes teaming up with random strangers increasingly unlikely. Sure, there won't be difficult mechanics, but there is still a level of coordination that would be expected, especially if the content is as long and difficult as you seem to be implying. Plus, with the supposedly complex nature of the area with patrols etc, it encourages players to use the same strategies and tactics each time it is ran...which hurts PUGs even more should the tanks be working differently. None of the elements here seem remotely puggable, in fact it seems more like an extremely hardcore raid than anything else.

3. Tome Cost: This tome cost will completely kill the content. Sure your goal is to keep away "Casuals" (which is incredibly strange for content that is supposed to be Mid-core in the first place). You have content that takes an incredible amount of time to complete (presumably), with extremely high difficulty, that gear can't make easier, and you decide to put a needless cost on it? People won't waste a resource that's vaguely valuable on something that's easy to fail and without any "useful" rewards, especially when there's already content that provides useful rewards in less time, effort, and can be more fun (EX Primals can be a blast). There is a reason no other content is gated behind a resource cost like this.

4. Rewards: The lack of rewards will cause a major disinterest in the content. Glamour only armor sets/weapons isn't something most people are willing to work for. If you included, for example, a number of special mounts or something it might have more pull, but probably not enough considering the difficulty. That you have to spend a resource that can provide other rewards only compounds this issue.

While there's some decent ideas here (large explorable areas and fun quests), I think you lost most people once you got into the details.

[Critical-Limit]

You can't post an idea here without someone trying to find a possible flaw in it. Even if that flaw is an opinion.

People pointing out personal distaste as if that's how everyone will feel. There are people who hate high end content because they feel anxious someone will belittle them. Should high end content not exist?

There are people who avoid doing dungeons because they find them brain dead easy. Should they just not exist?

Saying "I know people who don't bother to glamour" as a reasoning why the rewards aren't worth it. Well as long as the rewards have a market. I guess the people you know who don't glamour. This isn't their cup of tea and they can skip. This is why having multiple things to do is better than the same two extremes we're always getting.




I agree with others that your idea just sounds like how Diadem should've been.

[Cherie]

I think it's a nice idea really. The only thing I am a bit iffy on is using glamour as a reward. If this is a popular instance idea, the glamours will be widely available and have very little value in the long run over time. My little suggestion would be that you get other things and maybe glamour as a bonus item. For instance, food, potions and such things you would use for savage raids if you felt so inclined or could sell for money to people who would use them. They could be a lower quality than the crafted ones but it's not like you are ever going to get tired of having them.

Merely having glamour or a title/achievement as a reward hasn't been enough to motivate people to do content based on SE's prior experiments. For instance, the main reason to do the first savage dungeon made was just a achievement/title. It wasn't very popular content. Getting people to attempt anything that they might have to put some effort forth is a bit outside many's comfort zone. Granted, my suggestion probably isn't much better than using glamour as a motivator. It seems gear that makes you "play better" is the only thing that gets people to do things in droves (I mean the idea that it makes you "play better" seems to help if you think you play good, poorly or are industrious, lazy, whatever.) Bonus points if it's a flashy looking weapon or there is some notion they could be "first", even if its just a grind anyone can do.

[Zari]

Suggest this however you want but 2 things:
1. Learn how to take criticism especially if you ask for thoughts on the idea
2. If you want to suggest this as it is DONT CALL IT MIDCORE. As it is this is in no way midcore

[Critical-Limit]

I offer suggestion that most of this instances be randomized. So it doesn't feel like you're just repeating and grinding once you learn it.

And without much development time cost. They could just up the difficult when new tier of gear comes out. Put the old top tier glamour as trash drops(or something equivalent) And make the new glamour the main prize.

The main reason I can't stay attached to any of these instances is because everything is choreographed.

[Dzian]

The game as a whole suffers from a lack of incentives and motivation. because of it's very design. i'm a pretty avid gamer mostly casual in terms of play time and stuff. but I love challenges and difficult stuff.

in xiv though there's no motivation to do any of that. I'd like to do savage but really lack the motivation. I would have done seph ex but again motivation. same with a couple of other bits i'm yet to clear. the rewards don't last long enough, and neither does the difficulty. people are face rolling fights that were challenging once upon a time. and at some point ppl will be facerolling there way through savage, and that paired with the fact the rewards will be junk the moment the next patch lands just kills my motivation entirely.

by the games design midcore content already exists. midas savage may be considered hard core now. but It will phase into midcore and then into lollable casual. because the milestones are forever changing,

in a way it's quite saddening because i'd love to invest more into my character and do the harder content andstuff but in truth it just isn't worth it.
I let my sub lapse end of 2.55 just before heavensward release. resubbed 6-7 weeks ago. and have my core jobs as geared if not better geared than friends who have played continuously. and I don't takegear seriously because there's no point. I invest time building my character and then it's all for nothing. which again is a motivation killer.

kind of a shame really. the story has been great and that's pretty much the one thing that keeps my interest at the minute. i'd invest tons of time in clearing harder content and better gear if it was actually worth it.

[Vieilocean]

I'll be fully honest, this doesn't really seem "midcore" at all, nor something most players would be interested in. It's primarily due to certain factors:

1. Kicked out of an instance in a wipe: Why is this a major "feature" of the area? Nowhere else in the game (that I'm aware of) does the game force you out of the instance like this, and with good reason. Part of the idea behind ALL content is that, with enough time and effort, you can learn the content, get better at it, and eventually defeat it. Yet, only for this supposedly "midcore" challenge, you have to re-do the entire instance if you fail at a single part. It doesn't add anything to the "difficulty" of the content, it only adds needless frustration. "Woops, healers ate an AOE, I guess we have to re-do the last 7 quests now" is not something most, if any players would enjoy. It really only wastes time, since you can't learn the content without slogging through the entire thing. It's one thing to start a boss fight from the beginning, this is completely different.

This makes completing the boss nearly impossible, especially if the boss is particularly difficult. Not only do you have to slog your way through 10 possibly long and involved quests to get to the fight, but you also have to beat it in one try or you have to re-do literally all of the 10 quests AND lose tomes. If the boss wasn't particularly difficult, that might be fine. But according to this it's "EX Primal difficulty", which is completely ridiculous. EX Primals let you re-try the content instantly on a wipe, as many times as you like, with no real downside, especially not re-doing an entire 10 quests in a (presumably) large instanced area. There's also the difficulty of designing an epic, "EX Primal like fight" for content that most people won't even be able to reach in the first place. It would be a complete waste of resources, and a major waste of time for most players. More critically, anything that relies even partially on knowledge of the fight (as you suggest the final boss and sub-bosses should be), this requirement significantly hurts. If you have to re-do the entire instance because you don't know one of 11 parts extremely well...most people just won't re-do it. They'll just quit.

First of all thanks for this reply, at least you have read the whole OP.
- Kick from the istance. I can comprehend that people can see it as a too severe punishment, but it occurs on FULL wipes (and I suggested also a revamp for the phoenix down item) and failing the Elite Missions. Maybe both at the same time are a little too much, we can keep only the kick from full wipes for example.
- Learning the content. It's a content that should last till the end of the game, not only a patch cycle. So also if learning the mid-bosses or last boss takes a few months, it's not a problem. Again the big fights (mid and last bosses) have only basic mechanics, so the only thing you must learn are aoe patters and some mechanic based on reflexes not on coordination. So the difficulty it's similar to the EX trials, but with mechanics centered on reflexes not on coordination, ones all knows the fight the only way to wipe it's people losing attention. Surely it's only clearable with perfect runs, but the fun it's all there.

2. Puggable? : Explain once again how this content is puggable? It has a lot of factors that make it incredibly hard to pug. First off, this sounds like a very long instance. 10 quests plus an EX primal level fight is going to take a long time. Content which requires a long time to get done is much better done with statics, or FCs. That way players know they can trust each other (to a degree at least), and more critically they can plan time in their schedule to run long content. Even Diadem was only 1.5 hours (and is even shorter now). If I understand, this sounds more like a 3 hour challenge, and thus something you can't just start randomly. The extremely high difficulty as well makes teaming up with random strangers increasingly unlikely. Sure, there won't be difficult mechanics, but there is still a level of coordination that would be expected, especially if the content is as long and difficult as you seem to be implying. Plus, with the supposedly complex nature of the area with patrols etc, it encourages players to use the same strategies and tactics each time it is ran...which hurts PUGs even more should the tanks be working differently. None of the elements here seem remotely puggable, in fact it seems more like an extremely hardcore raid than anything else.

Puggable for me it's a content that you can clear without a static. This wouldn't mean that can be cleared with DF. With DF you can enter and do what you can, but for aiming a clear you need and organized pug party on PF. Also for this I put the achievement system. However I think it can be considered and cleared with midcore players in PF, cause more then coordination it requires focus. Maybe I'm wrong, but surely your doubts are legitimates.

3. Tome Cost: This tome cost will completely kill the content. Sure your goal is to keep away "Casuals" (which is incredibly strange for content that is supposed to be Mid-core in the first place). You have content that takes an incredible amount of time to complete (presumably), with extremely high difficulty, that gear can't make easier, and you decide to put a needless cost on it? People won't waste a resource that's vaguely valuable on something that's easy to fail and without any "useful" rewards, especially when there's already content that provides useful rewards in less time, effort, and can be more fun (EX Primals can be a blast). There is a reason no other content is gated behind a resource cost like this.

As I wrote before this is a feature that I only put to keep away trolls not casuals. Cause with casuals you surely can't clear the content, but you can reach and clear the firsts Elite quests that completely refund the initial fee; while trolls that make the party wipe on purpose on the first pull are only disturbing. However if considered too impopular it can be totally removed.

4. Rewards: The lack of rewards will cause a major disinterest in the content. Glamour only armor sets/weapons isn't something most people are willing to work for. If you included, for example, a number of special mounts or something it might have more pull, but probably not enough considering the difficulty. That you have to spend a resource that can provide other rewards only compounds this issue.

On this you can put all the rewards in the world like minipet, mounts, glamour, barding, furnishings...all but not ilev progression.

While there's some decent ideas here (large explorable areas and fun quests), I think you lost most people once you got into the details.

I only wrote a content good for me, but I'm happy that some of the features are good for someone.

[Vieilocean]

I love the punishment ideas. People keep thinking worse case scenario full wipe everytime. But the OP even mentioned pheonix down use.

Not everyone hates punishment. Sure the act of punishment sucks. But the tense feeling you get knowing that harsh punish is around the corner is a plus to my fun. If this never worked horror games that punish you hard for a single mistake would fail. But there are people who enjoy that "tense" feeling like death could happen at anytime if you aren't fully paying attention.

Thanks for the appreciation.And yes, the difficulty it's all about paying attention and not to cooperate and coordinate with others. Everyone must do his part.

You can't post an idea here without someone trying to find a possible flaw in it. Even if that flaw is an opinion.

People pointing out personal distaste as if that's how everyone will feel. There are people who hate high end content because they feel anxious someone will belittle them. Should high end content not exist?

There are people who avoid doing dungeons because they find them brain dead easy. Should they just not exist?

Saying "I know people who don't bother to glamour" as a reasoning why the rewards aren't worth it. Well as long as the rewards have a market. I guess the people you know who don't glamour. This isn't their cup of tea and they can skip. This is why having multiple things to do is better than the same two extremes we're always getting.

I agree with others that your idea just sounds like how Diadem should've been.

I perfectly agree. In my content there're surely flaws and I accept every suggest. The replies that I do not accept are the ones that only say "Dead on arrival cause not 100% clear and only glamour rewards", cause :
- they miss the point of the whole OP : I only want a midcore content that differs from the ones we have now, that's why I also wrote in OP "Show your content". I do not want necessarily THIS content, it's only the proposal of mine.
- they're not constructive. Writing this is DoA without any suggestion or proposal of any kind it's totally useless.

I offer suggestion that most of this instances be randomized. So it doesn't feel like you're just repeating and grinding once you learn it.

And without much development time cost. They could just up the difficult when new tier of gear comes out. Put the old top tier glamour as trash drops(or something equivalent) And make the new glamour the main prize.

The main reason I can't stay attached to any of these instances is because everything is choreographed.

It's real that everything is choreographed in all the instance we have; but if you totally randomized the map, mobs spawns and bosses (+ all the features I wrote) it will be too stressfull and too RNG. There must be progress, and if you're good you must have more chances to clear it, and not hoping in RNG. So for :
- Mobs. Instead of a random spawn I prefer a more complex system of patrols, so you know what to expect but you're not completely sure on what will happen.
- Bosses. An extreme version of Giruveganus (last boss of Stone Vigil HM, or Diresaurs in Heavensward) : a boss with a skill-set of aoes, that do NOT cast them in a pattern (choreography) but randomly, and obviously aoes are not visually shows (no aoe marks on ground). So all know that if the boss is crossing arms means that he's casting a ball of fire on the target he's facing and so on...

A content not totally RNG but neither fully choreographed.