People are deliberately ruining the story for others

[WinterLuna]

What I would like SE to do is to revamp the roulette system to work better with the mentor system. Players who sign up to be Mentors should be the players who are helping first timers clear content, not every random who just wants their roulette bonus. At least then there is a more fair complaint when new players feel like they can't experience the story or learn how the encounter mechanics work because they're literally just dragged through content.

I'd just like to stress that Mentors are not obligated to help players at every and any given time. We are players too. I would also like to stress I am always helping players and would gladly let others watch the cutscenes, but being a Mentor doesn't mean we must help every player 24/7.

[Skivvy]

I'm not putting words into anyone's mouth.

Call it what you like, but when you claim this:

You're saying that new players, or any players for that matter, should never be able to see the story. The climax of ARR should never happen at all.

Based on this comment:

New players get a quick queue and are allowed to watch their CSs, although they miss out on fights, and experienced players get their tomes at the expense of having to carry a person through an otherwise useless dungeon.

That is putting words in my mouth.

[Niwashi]

One: not the only option, but at this point I am repeating myself.

The options you listed were to do the piecemeal version where you do each of the individual activities at some point, but never get to see the story they're supposed to form, so you have to give up on the idea of ever seeing the climax of the game, or to get lucky enough to get a group that's considerate, which is what you're saying now is not the only option. I'm still not seeing any other options from you.

What "considerations (compromises)" are you making? You are stonewalling.

I've already discussed the consideration I expect of all sides at some length, but with the thread moving this fast you may have missed or forgotten it. I'll try for a shorter summarized version this time.

Everyone should be considerate enough to ensure that everyone in the party can get what they're there for. If someone's there for tomes then nobody should do anything that will prevent them from getting that tome reward. (Ok, that part's generally met in these runs, so we're good there already.) If someone's there for the story then nobody should do anything that will prevent the story from unfolding. (That part, however, is usually not being met in most current runs, which is why we keep having threads like this about it.)

That's the exact same consideration requirement on both sides. A compromise would only be called for if it were impossible to meet both sides of that condition, but it's not. My argument all along has been to not choose one side or the other, but to meet all goals that anyone has, just as you would be expected to do in any other content. The only difference here in these specific dungeons is that one of the goals takes quite a while, but that's by SE's design.

[Duuude007]

Everyone should be considerate enough to ensure that everyone in the party can get what they're there for.
If someone's there for tomes then nobody should do anything that will prevent them from getting that tome reward.

Shared goal from all parties, therefore struck from the record. Everyone goes for mixed reasons, but tomes is always on the list. You are giving up nothing at all.

If someone's there for the story then the party should respect the player's desire and not pressure them to skip cutscenes.

Fixed. This is the concession seasoned players offer in all story parties that I have been a part of since at least 2.5-

Now I will add another.

If someone's there for efficiency then the party should respect the player's desire and not pressure them to sit on their hands while the player goes idle in the middle of a dungeon for thirty minutes.

There are ways to find compromise, and if you choose not to compromise, you do not have to;
but know this:
Party members are well within their right to boot you if you disrupt progression that you disagree with as a minority voting member.

If all of this is too difficult of a concept to wrap your head around, party finder is available. Or FC friends. Or LS friends. or Shouts. Four options that I had mentioned before. Plus you don't even need 8 people, just 4 apart from your own self. Because whether you like it or not, majority rules in FFXIV party disputes, and always has.

[Niwashi]

Everyone should be considerate enough to ensure that everyone in the party can get what they're there for.
If someone's there for tomes then nobody should do anything that will prevent them from getting that tome reward.

Shared goal from all parties, therefore struck from the record. Everyone goes for mixed reasons, but tomes is always on the list.

No, if someone's there for the story, then they're almost certainly selecting the dungeon individually. The tomes (all but a trivial few that aren't enough to be anyone's goal) come from Roulette, which they're not using. It's only the veteran players re-running it through roulette who are there for the tomes.

The new players probably still want to complete the run. (That's part of the story too, after all.) But they're not after the same rewards that you are.

Now I will add another.
If someone's there for efficiency then the party should respect the player's desire and not pressure them to sit on their hands while the player goes idle in the middle of a dungeon for thirty minutes.

Except that that can't happen, because nobody would be there for "efficiency" (whatever that would even mean on its own). Not doing the run at all saves more time than skipping parts of it does. If what you actually mean is "efficiency of getting tomes", well, those tomes are the first goal I pointed out.

If all of this is too difficult of a concept to wrap your head around, party finder is available. Or FC friends. Or LS friends. or Shouts. Four options that I had mentioned before.

And I've used nearly all of those (except FC where nobody was available). But the way the group is formed isn't the issue. Party Finder, linkshells, shouts, they're no different from Duty Finder. You still need to hope someone will join who will stick with you and let you complete the whole run. And it's still just as unlikely that anyone will. (But then, I've mentioned that fact before, too.)

Plus you don't even need 8 people, just 4 apart from your own self. Because whether you like it or not, majority rules in FFXIV party disputes, and always has.

Yes, majority rules when there's a dispute. If people would be more considerate, though, and ensure everyone's goals are met, then there wouldn't be any dispute to resolve.

[Duuude007]

It's only the veteran players re-running it through roulette who are there for the tomes.

Didn't read, I see. So I will repeat myself. Again.

Everyone goes for mixed reasons, but tomes is always on the list.

Dungeon completion tomes applies to everyone, and you (as a first-timer) are 'a part of' everyone, so you are therefore mixed reasons, including but not limited to, tomes.

Again, you are conceding nothing at all.

[Knahli]

So the argument is that dividing the roulette between four dungeons rather than two will severely affect queue times, regardless of how relatively unpopular the cutscene-version proves to be? What are the queue times for Main Scenario Roulette over there? It was 5 minutes or less for me last time I checked so this really didn't strike me as very likely being much of a problem.

[Duuude007]

It was 5 minutes or less for me last time I checked so this really didn't strike me as very likely being much of a problem.

And you expect it to be split evenly down the middle? Only 10 minutes if you split it to open and cs enforced queues?

Sorry... but that's adorably naive. People don't opt in for long queues if they don't have to, people don't opt for long dungeons if they don't have to. This would have the worst of both worlds, so to speak.

[Knahli]

And you expect it to be split evenly down the middle? Only 10 minutes if you split it to open and cs enforced queues?

Sorry... but that's adorably naive. People don't opt in for long queues if they don't have to, people don't opt for long dungeons if they don't have to. This would have the worst of both worlds, so to speak.

No, I explicitly said that I expect speed runs to remain being the most popular.

You'll still have people who have the time but don't feel it it's worth the reward and people who don't have the time and therefore won't even consider the idea. Even if most people still opt for speed runs, you will surely have a more notable collection of players offering themselves into the longer MSQ Roulette just so they can get "more" from a single run. I hear a lot of people like to watch Netflix while they Tank and PvP so I'm sure that even if it does turn out lop-sided, it will still be in favour of faster runs.

I am specifically talking about the Main Scenario Roulette whose tome bonus can only be accessed once per day. Next to no-one who intends on actively farming tomes by running MSQ dungeons over and over are going to choose the longer option. I was talking about targeting people who only planned on doing the daily roulette - which, I might add, could even include a few hardcore farmers regardless, assuming they weren't rushing and wanted to do anything else during the cutscene phases until they began the speed runs later on in the day.

Despite me always feeling bad for the new players, I don't want the longer runs to become the more popular roulette because I want those who do farm it to suffer as little fallout as possible were such a change to be implemented. The difference is that even if the queues for those pursuing a cutscene-driven version are significantly longer, it's still an option that allows them a better chance to have people joining for the same purposes/expectations than what they currently face at present. If you want to argue in favour of the very redundant option of using the Party Finder so much, then why can't people who actually want speed runs be the ones to set up premade farming parties that way just like they do for every other piece of content in the game? Even if a new player IS made aware that they can't just join Castrum and Prae like every other dungeon prior and expect to be able to view cutscenes just fine, they still face extreme difficulty finding anyone willing to help by setting up a PF. If roulette option for newbies was made more apparent or even prioritised, then experienced players who actually know what they are doing can set up the farming PF runs themselves as they do for pony farms and any other existing example in the game.

[Niwashi]

And you expect it to be split evenly down the middle? Only 10 minutes if you split it to open and cs enforced queues?

Sorry... but that's adorably naive. People don't opt in for long queues if they don't have to, people don't opt for long dungeons if they don't have to. This would have the worst of both worlds, so to speak.

People generally just opt for the best rewards. That might give the fast run roulette a bit of difficulty, but I doubt it would be enough to create a problem, not when, as Knahli pointed out here, we're starting from such a glut of people (and the extra rewards might draw even more people into it). Other roulettes have more than 4 dungeons to divide people between and still do just fine, so I'm sure this one can survive being split into 2 and 2, even if it's a slightly uneven 2 and 2.