The Current Ecnomical State of ARR

[TahoeMax]

I did say "eventually". And apparently what I meant was "in a few days". Honestly, nothing is really selling on Famfrit other than materia. Sure, things are listed at 3-5m but they only sell if priced under 2m for the most part, and even then a sale happens every day or two. So you're closer to 10m for an HQ left side after a week. It'll likely drop from there, though perhaps not as precipitously

This is also not "entry level raiding'. Buying NQ gear for 1/3-1/2 the price is totally viable for Gordias, Void Ark, etc. This is end-game raiding, and with even a few of these pieces at HQ you are set for essentially everything in the game that isn't Sephirot EX or Midas Savage. If someone really wanted a shortcut to the endgame, they can hit 60, find a gilseller, give them 50 bucks, and away they go. Is SE tacitly endorsing gilsellers? Probably. Does it give players more options that didn't exist before? Absolutely. Depending on who you ask, that may be a reasonable trade-off or not.

[Sollux]

Besides, at these prices, how is this sustainable? Is this SE's way of endorsing the gil sellers? I can't think of any other way for this kind of gil to enter the economy for "most players" to use this stuff to gear up for entry level raiding. Going based on what I've seen before with prices, these will crash once they're obsolete and therefore won't do anyone any good for entry level raiding.

The problem with your economy is almost certainly due to a low number of Endgame Crafters on that server. Either your server is small and a few people are holding a monopoly, the market isn't Crafter-friendly (Low mat costs, plentiful amounts listed, etc.), or others have taken the exact same stance you about the Specialist system.

The best explanation I can honestly give you is that since the start of 3.0 SE has been trying to appeal to all types of Crafters, including HC Crafters, but the Crafting Endgame for the past 6 months has been lackluster at best with no real motivation to improve gear other than self satisfaction. Now that Crafting gear is viable those who put off gearing their Crafters for the past 6 months are struggling due to inflated costs and no preparation (I.E. Didn't save Red Scrips). Because of this the only players capable of mass producing 3*s are those who planned for the future and those who Craft for enjoyment and progression like myself, and the demand is much MUCH higher than the current supply.

I can't really find a non-Elitist way to say this, but the drastic changes to Crafting since HW release has effectively separated the HC Crafters from the Casual Crafters, and there is a VERY small number of HC Crafters even when compared to HC Raiders.

[-BlueGreen-]

I did say "eventually". And apparently what I meant was "in a few days".

I know you're being sarcastic, and I was being slightly unrealistic given that the content is so new, but that's also why I continued on by examining the costs of the anima weapon, which is inferior iLvl-wise and has been out a while. My basic point isn't so much that the prices aren't affordable within days of release, but rather that they're so slow to come down to reasonable levels that even being one patch outdated doesn't cut it. Want to gear up to pre-3.0 i110 in level 50 gear? That's affordable enough last I checked, but what would be the point? It's pretty obsolete and the 3.0 i115 gear is much easier to get the materials for.

The problem with your economy is almost certainly due to a low number of Endgame Crafters on that server. Either your server is small and a few people are holding a monopoly, the market isn't Crafter-friendly (Low mat costs, plentiful amounts listed, etc.), or others have taken the exact same stance you about the Specialist system.

I suspect it's a mix of those reasons, but given how crafting doesn't involve forming an 8-man static I would think that the ratio of crafters to non-crafters should be relatively similar across all of the servers. Although, a question: How does low mat costs/high mat availability hurt crafter-friendliness? What I've found so far is that if I need something for a craft, it's generally available and reasonably priced on my server unless it requires specialization.

The best explanation I can honestly give you is that since the start of 3.0 SE has been trying to appeal to all types of Crafters, including HC Crafters.

...

I can't really find a non-Elitist way to say this, but the drastic changes to Crafting since HW release has effectively separated the HC Crafters from the Casual Crafters, and there is a VERY small number of HC Crafters even when compared to HC Raiders.

If that first part about SE's goal in this is accurate, then your closing statement acknowledges that SE has failed and that they need to re-evaluate the path they're on.

[Sollux]

I suspect it's a mix of those reasons, but given how crafting doesn't involve forming an 8-man static I would think that the ratio of crafters to non-crafters should be relatively similar across all of the servers. Although, a question: How does low mat costs/high mat availability hurt crafter-friendliness? What I've found so far is that if I need something for a craft, it's generally available and reasonably priced on my server unless it requires specialization.

There are plenty of players who are also Crafters of course, but when I mentioned Endgame Crafters I was referring to the players who had their classes geared and ready for the current Endgame Crafting recipes. A properly overmelded white set could HQ all the way up to 2*, and given the potential time/gil sink getting i180/i170 gear requires coupled with no immediate benefits caused most players to not even touch Red Scrips at all. Because of this, the only players actually capable of Crafting the current 3* recipes are those who either had the gil/time to spare for the gear and were planning for the future or those who enjoy Crafting and geared their classes just to see improvements. Even combined, these types of players are an extremely small fraction of the Crafting community and I wouldn't be surprised if there was only 1 or 2 players capable of making 3* recipes at 3.2 release on smaller servers. I'm on Tonberry, a server I've been told has more high level Crafters than most and even now I usually only compete with 3-5 people max on most of my markets.

As to markets being Crafter friendly and my "(Low mat costs, plentiful amounts listed, etc.)" I was giving an example of what makes a market Crafter friendly. Some mats may be harder to find making the price rise and availability limited, and while this may not be true for Gathering mats it most certainly is in terms of 3* mats. Having a smaller playerbase means it's easier to have a monopoly on a certain market, and if you need a 3* mat that you can't make you're going to be forced to pay whatever price the person that has that monopoly deems fit, or spend a week+ worth of Scrips to change one of your classes. Higher mat cost means the final product will cost more to compensate, making it harder to sell (Or buy if you're trying to purchase it). You might make a large profit from big spenders every once in a while, but it's a drop in the bucket compared to how often you could have sold that item had it been at a more reasonable price.

If that first part about SE's goal in this is accurate, then your closing statement acknowledges that SE has failed and that they need to re-evaluate the path they're on.

Yes and no, the real issue lies with player mentality and SE's inability to interpret how the majority of players viewed Crafting. The biggest thing that caused most players to drop Endgame Crafting was the lack of any tangible benefit to gearing up. More 2* gear only helped in making 2* gear easier to Craft, but costs were so high and demand so little that there was no point to doing it if you were in it for the gil. It also didn't help that a gating system such as Red Scrips was a completely new concept and had it's own inherent flaws (15 minute Favors with no guarantee of getting anything at all was my biggest complaint). This was where SE dropped the ball.

As for the players, it took over 6 months for SE to release recipes that couldn't be Crafted with properly melded white gear. That's at least 25 weeks worth of Red Scrips, or 225 Red Scrips that could have been collected. With minimal melds on Accessories a player can Craft a 3* in full i180 gear + the OH, which costs 100 Red Scrips total IIRC. That's at least 2 classes that could have been 3* ready only by capping Red Scrips each week. Not only that, Red Scrip mats to craft i170 gear are literally 3 times easier (And cheaper) to get thanks to the increases near the end of last year. They may not have had the incentive to gear up their classes, but they had the ability to. This is the player's fault, but one I don't hold against them.

[MomomiMomi]

This is the player's fault, but one I don't hold against them.

But not the fault of new players, who get hit by this pretty hard.

Basically, red scrips are where they've really messed things up at. That's where the real problem lies.

[Sollux]

But not the fault of new players, who get hit by this pretty hard.

Basically, red scrips are where they've really messed things up at. That's where the real problem lies.

This isn't a problem, it's something that happens in every MMO. A new player cannot expect to immediately enter Endgame content for Crafting OR Combat if they start months later. The Crafting system functions differently in that the time between gear progressions is MUCH longer than it is for Combat, this hasn't changed since 2.0, the only difference is that the best gear is now locked behind a weekly cap. Even then, a properly melded white set can Craft everything up to 2* which means a diligent player can reach up to 2* levels of Crafting without touching Red Scrips at all.

[MomomiMomi]

This isn't a problem, it's something that happens in every MMO. A new player cannot expect to immediately enter Endgame content for Crafting OR Combat if they start months later. The Crafting system functions differently in that the time between gear progressions is MUCH longer than it is for Combat, this hasn't changed since 2.0, the only difference is that the best gear is now locked behind a weekly cap. Even then, a properly melded white set can Craft everything up to 2* which means a diligent player can reach up to 2* levels of Crafting without touching Red Scrips at all.

Not really. A player is combat endgame ready within a week of reaching level 60. Not so with crafting.

And to say it's something that happens in every MMO isn't quite true since it did not happen on this one until red scrips were added.

[Sollux]

Not really. A player is combat endgame ready within a week of reaching level 60. Not so with crafting.

And to say it's something that happens in every MMO isn't quite true since it did not happen on this one until red scrips were added.

3* Recipes are the Crafting equivalent of Midas Savage, and I guarantee you a new player would not have the skills or gear to clear Savage levels of content in a week. An experienced player starting a new character/class could probably clear A5S in the first week, but definitely not A6S+, and it's the same way for Crafting. An experienced Crafter making a new character/class could be Crafting 2* recipes in their first week of reaching 60, but definitely not 3* as it would require massive amounts of gil for i170 gear, something I don't assume everyone has.

And it IS something that happens in every MMO INCLUDING this one, the only difference is players are used to this kind of system for Combat, not Crafting/Gathering, and that's what is throwing people off. Before 3.0 you could be Crafting Endgame ready within a day depending on how much gil you spent on it, which was a shame because the Crafting system FFXIV has is complex enough that it deserves it's own Endgame and that's what we got with 3.0.

[MomomiMomi]

3* Recipes are the Crafting equivalent of Midas Savage, and I guarantee you a new player would not have the skills or gear to clear Savage levels of content in a week.

Which part am I missing? Beginning of 3.2: Current players had ilvl 210. New player within a week: ilvl 210 armor + 220 weapon. Skill is gained by doing the content, which they can do.

Crafters, on the other hand, can't. They're locked out of 3 star.

For 3 stars to be equivalent of Midas, you would be able to attempt them, but not guaranteed to succeed, in the same amount of time. They aren't equivalent. The barrier is set much higher for crafting. And skill is pretty much absent for crafting.

[Sollux]

Which part am I missing? Beginning of 3.2: Current players had ilvl 210. New player within a week: ilvl 210 armor + 220 weapon. Skill is gained by doing the content, which they can do.

Crafters, on the other hand, can't. They're locked out of 3 star.

For 3 stars to be equivalent of Midas, you would be able to attempt them, but not guaranteed to succeed, in the same amount of time. They aren't equivalent. The barrier is set much higher for crafting. And skill is pretty much absent for crafting.

The example wasn't meant to compare difficulties, it was meant to compare how Crafting is gated similarly to Combat, and I apologize for not elaborating. In terms of gating in comparison to Combat, I consider 3* to be at least A7S+, and 1*-2* to be A1S-A6S.

Just because you can ENTER A5S doesn't mean you can clear it, and if you can't you're locked out of A6S+ until you can gear up through weekly caps.
Just because you can CRAFT 2* doesn't mean you can HQ it, and if you can't you're locked out of 3* until you can gear up through weekly caps.

Clearing A5S gets you better gear and unlocks A6S and eventually A7S and A8S.
Making HQ 2* gets you better gear (i170) and eventually unlocks 3*.

Speaking on skill, you're correct that there's no skill required when you can be told "Get these stats, use this rotation", but there most certainly is for the people who found those numbers and that rotation. Especially on a new patch with new gear/rotations, the first few Crafters to find those optimal stats and rotation are going to make much more than others unwilling to experiment.

The main thing hurting new players (Or new Crafters in general) is that there has been no catch-up gear for Crafting and no increase in Red Scrip cap or reduction of the token cost for the i180 gear. Yes, Crafting content is harder to break into than Combat, but it's also not as essential as Combat is to enjoying the majority of the content the game has to offer, nor does it get as many updates or additions. You can complete the entire storyline, every Primal, and every Raid without even unlocking a single Crafting class. The same can't be said in reverse.