Are DRK's looked down upon?

[Jpec07]

out of curiosity, why doesnt PLD and DRK work? i keep reading that. People are saying Neither has the utility to OT. What utility is required, i believe both have an AOE enmity raiser for adds.

It's not really due to either one being particularly deficient so much as neither being able to compete with WAR in the OT spot. WAR can supply a slashing resistance debuff (which boosts DPS for DRK, PLD, WAR, and NIN), as well as a 10% reduction to outgoing damage from the boss, which outclasses both PLD and DRK--all while providing near-DPS-job-levels of DPS in Deliverance. PLD and DRK do have similar utility to the damage reduction, but they aren't as good at it unless they're MT. There's also the fact that neither can provide the slashing resistance debuff, and so without a WAR (or a NIN playing to support them), they aren't going to be able to deal as much damage.

[Kryptoghost]

It's not really due to either one being particularly deficient so much as neither being able to compete with WAR in the OT spot. WAR can supply a slashing resistance debuff (which boosts DPS for DRK, PLD, WAR, and NIN), as well as a 10% reduction to outgoing damage from the boss, which outclasses both PLD and DRK--all while providing near-DPS-job-levels of DPS in Deliverance. PLD and DRK do have similar utility to the damage reduction, but they aren't as good at it unless they're MT. There's also the fact that neither can provide the slashing resistance debuff, and so without a WAR (or a NIN playing to support them), they aren't going to be able to deal as much damage.

wow thats interesting. Sounds like WAR has become to tank to be. Back when i played my warrior i always felt like i was the lesser tank. But i was able to run pretty much anything as MT or OT.

[Februs]

Snip

It also has to do with fight designs.

Technically, Pld's actually bring a lot to the table as OT. They can Cover the MT for Tank busters, Cast DV for party wide AoE's, and free up the healer's mp pool by casting stoneskins and the odd clemency. When in the MT position, a Pld has much more time to look at the party list and decide what the best way for them to provide support is. the problem is that almost all of their support comes in the form of extra defense and mitigation, which is widely not needed.

Pld's dmg reduction utility in the OT spot is actually pretty close (if not better than) War's, especially considering most War's ignore their dmg debuff in favour of dps. So, in theory, Pld's can provide more utility in that spot. The problem is that the utility they are providing is not considered as useful as straight dps. As things are, Healers really don't need the extra help. It's nice, and I'm sure that they like it, but they don't need it. They can keep a group up just fine without a Pld. Further, the MT doesn't strictly need to be covered for tank busters. It's nice, and I'm sure that they like it, but all of the Tanks can mitigate their own dmg. The amount of extra mitigation that a Pld can provide in the OT position is not proportionate to the amount of Dps utility that a War can provide in the same spot.

When comparing War's and Pld's in OT, what it falls to is which has the higher utility ceiling, and there is no ceiling to dps. There's never a time in which someone goes, "whoa guys ... we're killing this guy too fast. Gotta slow it down," but there could very well be a time in which someone says, "err... well that DV was nice, but my Galvanize would have handled it ..." Extra Dps is always considered an asset. The same cannot be said for extra mitigation. There's a limit to how much extra mitigation is actually required before it's just overkill or no one even notices it, so as long as that is the only thing that Pld's bring to OT, they will never be considered favourable in that role over War's.

[Syzygian]

I feel like the tanking forums are almost at a singularity consisting of 50% Stat bickering, 25% WARs discussing their DPS and/or how they can MT/OT anything DRK/PLD can, and 25% DRKs and PLDs contemplating their reason for even existing amongst the constant "anything you can do we can do the same/better" from the former.

[SpookyGhost]

I feel like the tanking forums are almost at a singularity consisting of 50% Stat bickering, 25% WARs discussing their DPS and/or how they can MT/OT anything DRK/PLD can, and 25% DRKs and PLDs contemplating their reason for even existing amongst the constant "anything you can do we can do the same/better" from the former.

The tank section is pretty awful, yeah. I usually just come on here a few times a day to correct people on things. I'm beginning to wonder if I should still come at all, tbh.

[Violette]

It's not really due to either one being particularly deficient so much as neither being able to compete with WAR in the OT spot. WAR can supply a slashing resistance debuff (which boosts DPS for DRK, PLD, WAR, and NIN), as well as a 10% reduction to outgoing damage from the boss, which outclasses both PLD and DRK--all while providing near-DPS-job-levels of DPS in Deliverance. PLD and DRK do have similar utility to the damage reduction, but they aren't as good at it unless they're MT. There's also the fact that neither can provide the slashing resistance debuff, and so without a WAR (or a NIN playing to support them), they aren't going to be able to deal as much damage.

And a 450 potency smack to the face. Never forget the smack to the face.

But given tank's damage reduction the lack of ninja in favour of dragoon or monk isn't as harsh as it was in 3.15.

War also has their main soft cooldown on a 20s(at worst) cd and equilibrium.

[GeekMatt]

In early ARR as a healer there was a point where I realized I had to DPS less when a WAR was tanking. Eventually they buffed WAR and now it's probably my preferred tank in DF just for the run speeds over PLD. In HW I've had to accept that I consistently can't DPS as much with DRK tanking.

This could absolutely be based on play styles/player ability but it's still the case with typical DRK in DF/PF which will potentially impact attitudes.

[Ashkendor]

I feel like the tanking forums are almost at a singularity consisting of 50% Stat bickering, 25% WARs discussing their DPS and/or how they can MT/OT anything DRK/PLD can, and 25% DRKs and PLDs contemplating their reason for even existing amongst the constant "anything you can do we can do the same/better" from the former.

You forgot about the threads where Warriors whine about the DPS nerf while DRK and PLD look at each other and shrug.

[Synestra]

I'm beginning to wonder if I should still come at all, tbh.

Noooo! dont leave us! You and Syz are propably only ones that actually knows how tanking should be handled, too many times suggestions offered by other players in here are either broken or flatout OP but usually both of you give resonable tweak and fix suggestions.

[JackFross]

DRK is definitively squishier in trash pulls. It's not really something that's debatable. You can say "but you have tools" all you want. Their tools aren't "press 1 button" - they consist of knowing and understanding the Job's mechanics and executing them properly. DRK's trash tanking really shines when you blind the enemies or boost dodge rate or use DA+AD during Blood Price runoff. All of those require non-standard usage of Dark Arts. If you're not innately aware of these rarely-used effects, you're flat out not gonna do it.

Which results in DRK being squishier than PLD and WAR in trash pulls, in general. DA+DP/DD/AD is way trickier than "having a shield" or "hitting bloodbath" to be quite honest.