[SPOILERS] Minfillia' Fate in 3.2

[CyrilLucifer]

I'm guessing that neither Hydaelyn nor Zodiark is right on what to do with the world. Zodiark wants to smash everything back together no matter what will be left in the ashes, Hydaelyn (seemingly) wants to keep the darkness banished forever by destroying the last of Zodiark's servants. The middle road I'm seeing is getting Hydaelyn and Zodiark to reconcile and merge willingly, somehow, or going full on SMT Neutral and killing both if they still refuse to cooperate.

I agree, I think the separation continues to hurt both of them and, at some point, it's going to need to be fixed because the world as it is remains unstable, likely even without Ascian interference. We're fighting a losing battle because we're essentially fighting against the laws of the universe.

The middle road is definitely what I'm hoping we go for in some way, assuming it is possible. It would be nice to not work in such white and black extremes. I'm not sure if we'll go full SMT, that's a bit outside of XIV's targeted audience age range in Japan, but we can at least hope. I've lost enough of my favorite characters, don't make me lose Cutest and Second Best Ascian too, SE.

[Delily]

If it does turn out the Truth does change our perception of what the Ascians are doing I really hope someone calls them out on making everything far more difficult than it needed to be.

'Elidibus, you jackass! Open with those little details next time!'

I honestly don't think that's possible. It's been brought up before, but it bears repeating that historically, the Ascians are not what anyone would call good people. They've been responsible for the 7 Calamities. They taught people how to summon primals in order to weaken Hydaelyn. They helped Thordan become a primal. They reanimate bodies to use as hosts. They systemically use people as pawns to further their goal and then either trick them or discard them. I think the writers (or at least the English localization team) have made efforts to show that anything the Ascians want is not good for any living creature on Hydaelyn (the planet). Elidibus may be a worm, created by Zodiarl

As for the question of whether or not what Hydaelyn did was ethical/moral, there is a saying that goes you can't be honorable all the time, or you'll lose to the dishonorable. They focused very heavily on the fact that Hydaelyn is weakening, and it seems Minifilia's role as the Word is a desperate attempt for the Mothercrystal to find some way to communicate with us. Desperate times call for desperate measures. I think what makes the distinction is what Hydaelyn will do once she no longer needs Minifilia. Will she release her control and let Minifilia back into Eorzea? Will she allow her to be reborn? I suspect the key difference between the Ascians and Hydaelyn will be that Hydaelyn does not take lightly to using someone directly. Whereas the Ascians use someone and discard them, Hydaelyn seems more interested in guiding a person. It might just be she needed Minifilia as a last resort. The "NO" Minifilia exclaimed may have been her shock at realizing how weak the Mothercrystal was.

[Nalien]

We're fighting a losing battle because we're essentially fighting against the laws of the universe.

Are we?

I know the Ascians keep claiming Hydaelyn is some problematic entity that is slowly eroding reality, but have we ever actually seen anything indicating that's not simply their opinion? If they remember some previous existence, then obviously this new one would be "wrong" to them.

All damage we've seen can be traced back directly to Ascians... All the pretend damage Primals cause to reality just by being? Lets not forget who facilitated their summonings in the first place... Hydaelyn is essentially powerless and dead now, despite our best efforts? That is what Lahabrea planned for with Ultima...

I see no indication that Hydaelyn existing is somehow detrimental... Not to us anyway, all the conflict and strife seems to stem solely from the Ascians... This honestly just seems like a twist on FFIV (and FFIX) to me, just rather than evil moonmen, we have... Evil moonmen... OK, well Ascians are from a time before time, rather than literally from space, but they've been lumped on the moon because nothing good ever came from the moon in Final Fantasy... We've got the same sort of mentality Zeromus (and Garland!) had with the whole "Your world and lives don't matter, we'll sacrifice them for our goals"... Kidibus is hopefully Mikoto, Elidibus is maybe Kuja... Shame we got no Fusoya style character... I suspect there is a reason Heavensward is heavy on the FFIV and IX references though... Baron gear, wind-up Kain and Spoony Bard... Alexander... Tantalus outfit... Gigi... Then there is that big old FFVI reference, a game which centered around a nihilistic clown with the heroes declaring that it doesn't matter if everything dies, it's the day to day of their lives that matter...

[CyrilLucifer]

snip

Threadly reminder that the Ascians are not and have never been a hive mind. They do not share the same methods, let alone agree on them. Elidibus is currently aiding us in some way; Nabriales would be throwing a fit if he was still alive and knew. He threw a fit when Elidibus just visited us.

That's not to say that what Lahabrea was hoping for was good, but the goal of reunification may have been necessary, for both Hydaelyn and Zodiark (but Holy Hydaelyn is it cathartic to say that Best Ascian may have been right all along, just his methods needed checking).

Edit to Nalien: I'm referring to the discussion on the previous page, which had to do with the splitting of the crystals and how it seems quite likely that Hydaelyn and Zodiark are intended to be in balance, as it was when the universe was in its basal state. Both need to exist and interact for the balance of the universe to be maintained. Separated as they are right now, it's causing problems for Hydaelyn. I'm not saying Hydaelyn's existence is detrimental at all.

[Nalien]

Separated as they are right now, it's causing problems for Hydaelyn.

And this is where I completely disagree... We've got no evidence of that, if anything we have evidence to the contrary...

Seven Rejoinings, successful attempts at rejoining.... whatever... And all of them have been calamitous in nature... There is no indication that correcting this "problem" is good for us, there is a mountain of evidence that is is bad. There is no indication that Hydaelyn has done anything wrong, that's entirely speculative... There is no evidence that a splitting whatever is in any way a problem, every problem we've seen has instead been caused by the Ascians...

I mean I agree with the concept, because this is Final Fantasy and several of the games have dealt with "death is inevitable" on both a personal and global scale before... It's because of that that I cannot see an idyllic solution, though... I can see Hydaelyn splitting reality resulting in an imperfect world that will eventually crumble away and die, and I can see the Ascians fighting to undo that to prevent the heat death of the universe, but you know, at the cost of life itself, which defeats the purpose IMO. I see more in common here with FFIV and FFIX, than I do FFV, where love and friendship restore the balance and everyone is happy! Hydaelyn is Gaia, Zodiark is Terra. We have an example of a dead planet (or rather moon). People from it who want to restore their "God" by sacrificing ours. All we need is Elidibus (or rather Lahabrea, Elidibus seems more like a Garland character) to shatter Hydaelyn so we can get our odd fight with Necron out of the way, where we declare that we don't care if we'll eventually die, so we can move onto more interesting villains...

Ascians even potentially had the same "I can die?!" realization Kuja had, after we put Nabriales down... I half expect Lahabrea to return just for that realization to really be hammered home, so he can go Trance mode... He is the one who started the job of destroying Hydaelyn, after all... That was the whole point of Ultima... And really, who doesn't want to see Lahabrea rock that Kuja cosplay?

[Delily]

Threadly reminder that the Ascians are not and have never been a hive mind. They do not share the same methods, let alone agree on them. Elidibus is currently aiding us in some way; Nabriales would be throwing a fit if he was still alive and knew. He threw a fit when Elidibus just visited us.

That's not to say that what Lahabrea was hoping for was good, but the goal of reunification may have been necessary, for both Hydaelyn and Zodiark (but Holy Hydaelyn is it cathartic to say that Best Ascian may have been right all along, just his methods needed checking).

They're not a hive mind, but I also think it's quite a stretch to think Elidibus is aiding us. He was, after all, featured behind the throne of Thordan at the end of ARR. He also summoned the W(s)oD, who don't strike me as wanting to help us. My personal opinion is that Elidibus is more deceptive and cunning in his moves, whereas Nabriales was more direct. Attempting to deceive the Warrior of Light directly has a huge amount of risk associated with it, hat given how close the Ascians are, is not something they need. I know many people here thin the Ascians are working for the greater good, but I have to see anything that even remotely supports that. They have a history of violence and deception. Why would Elidibus be any different?

[CyrilLucifer]

I'm not seeing the IX references at all. I'm seeing it as closer to Promathia and Altana in XI, which is by word of God what they were going for with the "world" themes:

Yoshida: Speaking of "the void," what's on the other side in another world was also a theme back in FFXI.

That same interview also mentions we'll learn Umbral Eras and how they come into play which we haven't covered yet, however they do seem to be important to Hydaelyn's balance, so SE might not be done leaking information on the cosmic order in 3.X to us.
Source: https://www.bluegartr.com/threads/12....1-Impressions

Also, unlike in IX, Hydaelyn did this to Zodiark. Zodiark (supposedly) provoked Hydaelyn, true, but it was Hydaelyn that split what was intended to be one. It's not like Terra and Gaia where one is clearly the innocent and the other a parasite. Both sides have a hand in this and, again, unlike IX, these are two celestial objects that were at one point connected, Zodiark is not alien.

Actually, being a Moon might well be intentional. The Moon, in our own Universe, is extremely important for keeping oceanic patterns (and, therefore, influences the weather) in check. Imperative, actually.

Now, in XI, Promathia was understandably agitated that Altana had split his flesh into mortals and destroyed the Mothercrystal, effectively ending the age of Gods. But he eventually rejoined Altana, in what I'm hoping ends up similar to XIV's situation where Hydaelyn and Zodiark can kindasorta come to an agreement.

[Nalien]

That's why I said "a twist on FFIV (and FFIX)", had they copied the plot word for word I'd be somewhat disappointed...

We still have one group of "higher beings" facilitating conflict on a more "primitive" world in order to restore their world. It just happens this time it's a case making the world as it once was, and as it always should have been, rather than literally giving us aliens out to take over/assimilate our world...

I'm really not convinced we'll see Hydaelyn and Zodiark hug it out, not when the Ascians MO from the very start has been to kill Hydaelyn (I mean really). If Zodiark is as silent and as powerless as Hydaelyn, then... Well it sucks 99.9% of his followers are undeniably evil... Their actions just give credit to Hydaelyns "He coveted power" account of events...

[Fenral]

And this is where I completely disagree... We've got no evidence of that, if anything we have evidence to the contrary...

Do I need to remind you that Word of God states that pretty much everything we know of history was written down in the Sixth Astral Era (barring the occasional Allagan archive)? Aside from that, all we have is stuff told to us by Hydaelyn, who quite openly has Her own agenda. If she really wants us to Hear, Feel, Think for ourselves, I don't see a positive benefit to ruling stuff out. If there's really nothing wrong with what she did, we'll uncover that truth for ourselves and get right back on with our merry Ascian-slaying adventure and banish the darkness forever. Go Light!

[Zohar_Lahar]

It would be funny if it turns out the whole thing with Hydaelyn and Zodiark started out as a result of a 10,000 year old lunar creation myth spiraling out of control because of all that stuff about "truth interpreted is truth changed" stuff and myth becoming real.