[SPOILERS] Minfillia' Fate in 3.2

[Fenral]

Ascians are attempting to out right kill Hydaeyln. That has been their MO from the very start...

All this business about returning the world to how it once was strikes me as a deception... Nothing the Ascians have said or done indicates otherwise, or casts any doubt on Hydaelyns account of events... Light and Darkness are required? Perhaps that's why Zodiark was merely banished. The Ascians aren't attempting to restore that balance though, are they? They're attempting to extinguish Light.

I'm beginning to wonder if it's different, actually.

Like, this is what the Ascians are after now, but only because all their earlier attempts at negotiation failed and they've simply stopped trying? Case in point: the seventh Rejoining succeeded, but the Calamity was a joke by comparison to the first six. Before you jump on me about "so we should just allow another calamity, then!?" think about it: if Rejoining really required a massive disaster that resets human civilization, how could it still succeed even if the disaster itself was contained? There's something more to it that we haven't been told.

Could the Ascians have simply compromised their ideals for the sake of their mission, pushing on for an objective too important to fail? It would be an appropriate parallel. Either way, we still know nothing about the state of the world after all this, but I suddenly got the chilling feeling that our current target for victory is a really bad idea. Don't pull out that spear, Shinji. (Ooph, Eldibus's Japanese VA makes the Eva joke even more appropriate. XP )

[Kallera]

Here's where I stop paying attention to the Ascians, though... Hydaelyn banished Zodiark. Banished.

Ascians are attempting to out right kill Hydaeyln.

All this business about returning the world to how it once was strikes me as a deception... Nothing the Ascians have said or done indicates otherwise, or casts any doubt on Hydaelyns account of events... Light and Darkness are required? Perhaps that's why Zodiark was merely banished. The Ascians aren't attempting to restore that balance though, are they? They're attempting to extinguish Light.....

I'm pretty sure given a reversal of fortunes we would also be trying to kill Zodiark, all the while claiming to have no recourse, or seduced by the idea that Calamities will never happen again. (despite them not being poofed into existence, but made through mortal efforts and wills)

Does it excuse all of their behavior? No. But our destruction of Zodiark might prove as bad as Lahabrea's goofy plans for the Ultima Weapon. Even Elidibus's lines suggested that some of the plotting Ascians were operating outside of Zodiark's intentions.

[Nalien]

Case in point: the seventh Rejoining succeeded, but the Calamity was a joke by comparison to the first six. Before you jump on me about "so we should just allow another calamity, then!?"

I'm more likely to jump on you for claiming to know the devastation previous Calamities caused... Given how much Allag, Nym, Amdapor and Mhach stuff is still kicking around, I'm incline to think none of them were that bad... Civilizations "resetting" is not dependent on a Calamity, Belah'dia and Sil'dih being prime examples. Both rose and fell between the Sixth and Seventh Calamity/Rejoining. As did whatever we call the Dravanian society Ishgard destroyed...

Lets pretend we left Ishgard alone though, Nidhogg flew in and wreaked the place... Thordan didn't do anything, there was no attempt by Lahabrea to use him for the final Rejoining... Ishgard fell to Nidhogg, not to Bahamut... 1,000 years from now, who'd know the difference? The massive Space Katamari Calamity is what would be remembered, people would just assume Ishgard fell because of that, like we assume all prior civilizations fell because of their respective Calamities.

If they're not resetting civilizations instantly, they're not so bad? Tell that to all the people that died in them, or worse were manipulated into facilitating them...

[Fenral]

If they're not resetting civilizations instantly, they're not so bad? Tell that to all the people that died in them, or worse were manipulated into facilitating them...

Oh, for crying out loud, did you even read the rest of my post, or is attempting to not immediately demonize the opposing side of a war against the good guy playbook all of a sudden? I'm not saying their choice of means isn't bad; I'm saying it could easily be something they've decided is "the only way." It's meaningless to keep a war going on bad intel simply to avenge the fallen, all you create is more fallen to avenge. Is that not the lesson we're learning in Ishgard already?

This isn't me saying we should just lay down and die, or kill Hydaelyn ourselves, but that whatever the Ascians have done in the past, it doesn't change what we should do if a peaceful solution has existed all along. Denying the possibility of a peaceful resolution is what evil empires do.

[Belhi]

You need to remember two things about the 7th Umbral Calamity. Firstly it was really bad. The death toll and damage was huge. There are areas that are still basically wastelands. We haven't seen the scale of it in game because either we haven't been to the worst effected area or the areas we have been in have been rebuilt. Secondly the damage of the Calamity was HEAVILY mitigated by Phoenix. The Primal returned a huge amount of Aether to the land giving it a 'rebirth'. Add to that the whole 'No one can remember the WoL' thing.

Its also worth noting that the point of the Ardor seem to have been to destroy these 'reflections'. They also talk about getting to a source.

Further there isn't much in game to support the theory that the Ascians are basically misunderstood or misguided good guys. They show no remorse or care for the carnage they unleash and spread chaos and death quite freely. Infact in some cases they seem to hold mortals in contempt. They also seem interested in the world being swallowed in shadow. Further we have no indication that they ever attempted negotiation. Certainly they have had ample opportunity to attempt to put their case to us. Elidibus even said if we knew what he knew we would agree with him. They haven't at any stage actually attempted to approach us with their side of things let alone try a peaceful solution.

Now would we kill Zodiark if we could? Well frankly we lack much information on that. Do we have the whole story? No I don't think so. Is Hydaelyn outright lying to us? I very much doubt it. Everything ingame and out has presented her as a benevolent entity that not only cares for those who live upon the 'star' but also outright encourages us to learn and grow. Remember her first words. Hear, Think, Feel. That's not what you tell a mindless minion to do. That's what you tell someone you want to have think for themselves.

[Shikiseki]

She's more vague in English (as-per-bloody-usual)

That was also the case in the German version. I was quite shocked how different that version was to the english one. She literally states that she banished Zodiark to a star(The Moon that's orbiting around her, hence the Moon scene a few patches ago) and split the whole world into 14 different worlds, with each calamity destroying one barrier that seperates those worlds. So when all 14 are broken, the original merged world would reappear and Zodiark/Haiderin would be on equal footing again, which could turn out leading to her being banished by Zodiark as he also can't destroy her. As for the Ascians, they might just want to see the merged world too (maybe they are sick of not having a natural circle of rebirth? I don't know).

This was an very important story patch for the Scions as a whole cause it put their motives into doubt (and each of them telling what their goal is now). Even though I'd really like to experience the merged/original world someday, that totally reminds me of FF5.

That said, I'd really wish that the english translations wouldn't be so vague, I like playing the game in english, even though it's not my native language but I have a lot of trouble understanding what they are saying lately...

[Nalien]

Is that not the lesson we're learning in Ishgard already?

Not the lesson I took back from Ishgard... We're not making peace with Nidhogg any time soon, heck we've already killed him... We went in thinking we could talk things out, but the simple fact of the matter was that Nidhogg was not going to allow for peace. Even from the grave he is fighting against peace, not just for Ishgard, but directly against his own brothers brood now...

Nidhogg had been f*cking with Ishgard for 1,000 years. How long have the Ascians been f*cking with the entire world? It would seem each Calamity marked a Rejoining, and each Calamity marked an Umbral Era, and history started with an Umbral Era, so it would seem they jumped straight on the Ardor method without really trying much else...

Bottom line, we're ignorant. The people with the power to change any of this are not us, Nidhogg had the option of metaphorically spanking Ishgard for what they did and teaching them better, but he opted for a bloodbath instead. The Ascians might have the option of an "Everybody lives!" scenario, but they're not sharing it with us. Derplander might be an attempt on something like that, but Derplander instantly assaulted us, so scratch that... He comes off as embittered (I'm fairly certain he is just butthurt over everyone forgetting him), not someone Elidibus has enlightened to some better alternative... If there was a scenario in which we don't have to fight, Derplander was the perfect chance to introduce it, instead he continued hostilities. As a result I'll continue resisting them, it's as simple as that...

Don't get me wrong, if Elidibus wants a chat, I'll listen. That isn't what I've been seeing, though... I'm seeing someone far more manipulative than Hydaelyn supposedly is for kidnapping Minfilia... It's not like we can even take the fight to the Ascians, or Zodiark (unless the Lunar Whale is kicking about "Seek... The Lunar Whale!"), the odds are still very much stacked in their favor, which continues to make the whole "We could have done this all along!" scenario all the more unlikely to me... If they wanted to extend the olive branch and find a better way, it has always been in their power to do so. Unfortunately I'm not some immortal, all knowing being that can warp around on a whim. We have a mountain to climb to get anywhere close to that level of power, and what are they doing every step of the way? Trying to push us off...

This isn't me saying we should just lay down and die, or kill Hydaelyn ourselves, but that whatever the Ascians have done in the past, it doesn't change what we should do if a peaceful solution has existed all along. Denying the possibility of a peaceful resolution is what evil empires do.

I'll accept the possibility of peace when they're shown to be anything other than absolutely evil. They're one dimensional villains, taking lessons from Zeromus and Yu Yevon, it's why I'm eager to be finished with them, so we can move onto characters like Ilberd and the Garlean Empire. Villains who might actually have a point, rather than villains who insert evil laughter after every other line...

[CyrilLucifer]

Covering a few points because I don't have time for more -

First, in regards to Hydaelyn banishing Zodiark, not destroying, this is very likely because it was flat out not within Her ability to destroy Him, for many reasons. I don't really think that can be used as an argument for Her being more forgiving, in any case.

It's quite clear that Zodiark ended up with the very short end of the stick. Look at him/the moon. He is empty, devoid of anything; even His servants aren't alive in the traditional sense, they're outside of life. Zodiark has nothing; Hydaelyn has everything and it's very likely that Hydaelyn took everything of His, hence Elidibus stating a return to balance, to a time when the power is shared equally. Whether this is justified, we don't know enough of the story.

It's also worth noting that Urianger, an Archon and Scion, and the Scions are pretty deeply stuck in their hide-y holes of "Hydaelyn is right, no other options exist" is willing to listen to Elidibus repeatedly. He must have some valid points that pertain to Hydaelyn. In fact, Urianger is going as far to trust Elidibus' goals in some form, which he tells us in the Sands:

For now, we must trust to Unukalhai to pave the way forward unto the truth. In another dialogue option, he also tells us there are times we can trust the words of our foes.

Which leads me to. . .

Hydaelyn being benevolent - absolutely from our perspective, but as they say, "The road to Hell. . ." SE has used this trope with their Gods many times in Final Fantasy, with the well-intentioned God(dess) causing more problems in the universe with their actions than actively helping. As this game is a love letter to the games previous, you absolutely cannot discount this.

[AdamuKun322]

Let's see.. as the WoL we carry the Light and blessing to do Hydalean's Business while she's weak. Zodiark is pretty much the Void at this point in the game. This "Source" Minifilla mentioned is probably what we are to protect and "seek" first before the Ascians get their hands on it. Elidibus... he needs to talk to us again to add more to the other side of the coin.

[Nalien]

Elidibus... he needs to talk to us again to add more to the other side of the coin.

Pretty much... I don't get why he didn't just out right tell us TheTruth™. We didn't need to believe it, we could have viewed him as "That crazy guy who think Hydaelyn kills kittens!", but over time we'd come to see the truth... We'd rock into Antitower, see all the kitten bones and lament our poor judgment...

Instead, I'm not convinced there is any shocking truth to be uncovered... This just seems like a scheme, the kind Ascians are known for... If they can orchestrate putting a Dragon God in a moon so thousands of years later they can drop it back down to cause a Calamity, they are fully capable of planting the seed of doubt in our minds, then waiting for Hydaelyn to slip up and have us question things... "YES! Hydaelyn would sacrifice Minfilia! That's what I knew all along... and didn't tell you even though that could likely have lead to you preventing it from happening... Forget that! Be mad at Hydaelyn! Join me!".

I really cannot imagine peace with Ascians... Not because I don't accept it as a possibility, but because I don't see it as a possibility... They've always been the ones in control, they're the ones who know everything and have all the power... Peace isn't something one side makes happen, both sides have to be involved. We murdered Nidhogg because he was absolutely against peace, he was happily toying with Ishgard for revenge. The Ascians seem absolutely no different. Every encounter with them (sans Elidibus) is dripping with disdain and almost always results in them attacking us, despite the fact that they can just port out on a whim... They're never have to fight us, they can just port out and wait (which is what they always attempt when they fail to kill us), they fight us because they want us dead...

Elidibus was the best hope for actually talking things out, but he seems far more interesting in acting all buddy buddy over a joint assault on some Primals... As if I've forgotten who goes around teaching tribes how to summon these things... As if I've forgotten who gave Allag the means to trap Primals in the first place... He's left it too long, he just comes off as manipulative at this point, which is going to make me question the validity of his "truth". Whatever terrible thing Hydaelyn has done, I'm not seeing it... All I'm seeing is Hydaelyn constantly being assaulted by them... From my stand point, they're responsible for most (if not all) of the conflicts and suffering going on... They've made it very apparent that they play the long game and sow seeds to reap much later... Meanwhile, Hydaelyn is just kinda there... I've yet to see what is so terrible about Her existence, and the people who are apparently aware of this thing are more interested in murdering me than telling me... So this is either a case of Elidibus playing us, or the writers playing Bravely Default and thinking Alternis Dim being unable to spell out the real threat, despite being aware of it, was the most brilliant plot ever... Does anyone win here?