[SPOILERS] Minfillia' Fate in 3.2

[CyrilLucifer]

snip

That's all well and good, and I agree to disagree, but why is it okay?

Why is it okay for Hydaelyn to even ask one of Her children to sacrifice their individuality in the first place? That's not to say FF hasn't done this in the past, since they did something similar with Aeris and the Lifestream, but at least Aeris wasn't requested to die specifically for a purpose - she was flat out murdered, even if she knew her death was coming. She also retained her individuality after death.

"Greater Good" one might argue, but then, as we've all said at one point, your "good" stops being "greater" when you start absorbing and eliminating the individuality of those who follow you. Though I do agree that Hydaelyn seems to have been eliminated by Minfilia as well and they seem to be a Hydaefilia. I believe Hydaelyn has as much right to individuality as Minfilia (and Zodiark, actually).

Building off that - why shouldn't we question? Why should we be expected to follow blindly and loyally, after seeing the fate of our friend that only led to vague answers that weren't answers at all. All she gave us was more questions. I have a lot of problems with the scene in general, but this is the biggest one for me. The Scions rightfully believe it is a tragedy, but I didn't really feel like they thought it was justified to question Hydaelyn. It happened because Minfilia was "always closest" to Her, and she was needed.

A type of blind, "Hydaelyn is the Mother, She knows what is best for everyone" following almost reminiscent of tempering.

(I actually do believe this is the result of one of those aforementioned cultural issues, though, more than anything)

[Belhi]

/snip

The west does have the idea of the noble death or noble sacrifice. It turns up plenty. Its certainly seen as a tragedy but at the same time its often seen as heroic. One dies so many may live. While this might not seem to apply in this case, I think its supposed to since Minfilia's motivation was the wellbeing of her friends and the people of Eorzea she dedicated her life to protecting. This is of course assuming she is actually dead and/or unrecoverable. Regardless the Scions are clearly not cool with the outcome even if they are accepting it. I'd also point out that G'hara is eventually recoverable under the right circumstances, circumstances NOAH dedicates itself to achieving at the end of the CT story. He is sleeping, not dead.

I think part of the issue here is are lack of understanding of what Hydaelyn is. The game introduced her as 'All made One', a manifestation and source of life on the planet itself. Aether is Life and as she grows weaker the Aether levels in the world drop. If this is true, and if this is the basis most characters are operating from, Hydaelyn's death or destruction could literally mean death for the planet. This is the logic I've operated on.

Assuming that the ingame NPCs operate on the same logic, you can see why Minfilia might see sacrificing herself to keep Hydaelyn in the fight might in her mind translate into sacrificing her self for her friends. Its not a great outcome but the logic is there.

On Iceheart, I don't think she wanted to die. I think she wanted to fight with us. When she got there she saw how screwed we were, and we were really, really screwed. A Garlean capitol ship verse our little craft? Even if we had made landfall we would still have the Garlean military supported by more firepower than we had ever dealt with before from the Garleans pointed at us. Again, she sacrificed herself to protect her friends. I don't think she died on purpose. She just knew it as the most likely outcome.

[Berethos]

I think where this particular moment is in the bigger picture is getting lost in the need to continue to justify the course we have been on as correct and not in need of questioning or deviation.

And I think the call for questioning or possible deviation is, right now, based on far too much speculation about a series of events and an idealist sense of "individuality trumps everything else, even the existence of this world."

In the bigger picture, this fits in somewhere around "oh crap, if we lose this time that's it, we need to find a way to beat them for good" and that is getting lost in the questioning of whether it's philosophically okay to ask someone to sacrifice themselves for the greater good.

Not the best time for an existential crisis.

[Fenral]

Okay, this discussion is clearly going in circles. Short of some late-game choice that actually involves deleting or irreparably damaging your player data (thank you, Persona 3), I don't think there's anything that will convince you that Alphinaud is right in wanting to look for another way, because either way you've already internalized that "no matter the cost" doesn't change that you will always be there. It's a limitation of the medium, sure, but it's also keeping you from seeing the picture as it's being presented.

Or maybe I'm wrong for wanting to believe that W'fharl Tia places value in the people he fights with who fight for him in cutscenes. I'm sorry, but going to war is not the same as accepting that the people around you will/must all die, and victory does not justify the means, no matter what you think you're fighting for.

There's so little we know, and sometimes questioning the cause you fight for, even surrendering, can save more lives than fighting on to the last for a cause you are told to take on faith alone. Have you stopped to consider what might happen if we were to sacrifice the Scions to decisively defeat the Ascians, only to find out that it doesn't actually save the world? Is it really not better to know?

Some of us have stronger deicidal tendencies than others, but that doesn't really change that the direction the story is going in is one of questioning the cause we fight for.

[CyrilLucifer]

Yeah, I don't think either side is going to budge from our hidey holes when it comes to this. The most we can really argue at this point is what might happen.

W-well, at least my hidey hole has a cute totally-not-Ascian in it.

[Cilia]

Well, to be fair, Hydaenlyn never commanded or even requested Minfilia sacrifice herself. The only thing she told Minfilia to do was run back into Flow... but again, that comes back to the question of why Hydaelyn issued that command in the first place.

The sequence of events goes like this:

1. Thancred and Y'shtola fight Crystal Braves in the Belah'dian waterway.
2. Y'shtola casts Flow.
3. Hydaelyn tells Minfilia to run back into Flow.
4. Thancred is warped to the Dravanian Forelands, Y'shtola is lost in the Lifestream, and Minfilia is stranded in the Aetherial Sea.
5. Minfilia prays to Hydaelyn.
6. Hydaelyn assimilates Minfilia.

The big, big question is: why was 3 above commanded? It was completely unnecessary at that point: Thancred and Y'shtola were already caught up in Flow and Minfilia was in no danger. I don't want to believe Hydaelyn called Minfilia for the sole purpose of assimilating her (and thus extending Her time) or using her as an avatar, but I can't think of another conclusion. Even if it's an act of desperation... that is not okay.

Back to the cultural argument: it probably is a big deal, with the collectivist vs. individualist mindsets clashing (Eastern ideals are generally more collectivist, while the inverse is true in the West). I'm a bit late to the party, but to further augment the discussion, in Magic: The Gathering philosophy Eastern ideals, being collectivist, tend towards Selesnya or Bant, while Western individualist ideals tend towards Izzet or Grixis. Anyone who knows those terms knows they're bound to clash. I'd explain more, but... I don't want to. Maybe on request or when I'm less tired, but it's a long and nerdy philosophy dump.

As to whether or not it's okay to sacrifice one person for the world... that's up to you. It's easy to say "Yeah, sure" when it's somebody you don't care about - but everyone cares about Minfilia, and this has hit them hard. The Warrior of Light is getting rather melancholy with all the sacrifices that keep adding up, Y'shtola is being unusually firm and missing Matoya's point entirely, Thancred is acting uncharacteristically cold and brusque, and Alphinaud is desperate to prove to himself that we can save someone close to us (to the point that yes, he intends to defy the Gods if need be). Regardless, numerous questions remain such as why this was necessary, and whether or not everything we've done has made any real difference.

Really, it comes down to a very basic choice between these two lines...

The future must be protected.

We make the future! You trust the path you choose and create it.

I'm pretty sure I know what Hydaelyn wants us to seek, though...

Souls. Larger, more powerful souls.

[Khalithar]

It also makes me wish we had more dialogue options, I hope we learn more soon.

When she revealed that she was the voice of the mother and was once minfilia? My immediate reaction:

[Velox]

I think more will be revealed in 3.3 when we meet the Mouth of the Mother.

[Berethos]

When she revealed that she was the voice of the mother and was once minfilia? My immediate reaction:

Several is definitely an understatement, and I certainly want answers to those before I go calling for our surrender or the casting down of gods.

[Fenral]

We can't keep fighting blindly, and no matter what we may or may not learn by searching for real answers, we have to learn all we can.

And I think the call for questioning or possible deviation is, right now, based on far too much speculation

Several is definitely an understatement, and I certainly want answers to those before I go calling for our surrender or the casting down of gods.

Yes, I am that petty. Did you even read what I was saying?

How exactly do you think we're going to get answers without questioning our own cause in the process?

But it's not like a debate here affects the outcome of anything. Mostly I'm just curious why people are so opposed the possibility that we're serving something that isn't quite what it says it is. Looking for answers sometimes means looking into possibilities you might not want to consider. But at this point I think it's something we need to be sure on before continuing any course, even the one we were on before.