Why should warriors get a free pass to all savage content?

[Syzygian]

except that power slash combo actually has more potency than butcher block combo
power slash 300 potency compared to 280 butcher block

You're missing the point. BB is WAR's highest potency combo. That means it can do its top DPS and still hold hate. Why? I dunno.. it just gets an arbitrary freebie there.

PS is DRK's lowest potency out of the jobs combos (PS 670 DE 680 DASE 800) which means it has to gimp its DPS to hold hate and if you stance dance and try to do your optimal rotation you're in very real danger of losing hate. PLD suffers from the same issue, but at least it situationally offers some utility with RoH. DRK additionally suffers since its enmity combo not only is its lowest DPS but destroys its mana-management.

I have almost every combo-based job leveled to the point where I have access to all their combos (PLD/DRK/WAR @ 60, DRG @ 60, MNK @ 50, NIN @ 46 (so I'm only missing Armor Crush)); I've pushed almost every combo in this game and its a fact: Power Slash is probably the worst combo in the entire game. Every DRK fucking hates it - lowest DPS, zero utility, AND it completely undermines the main mechanic of the job.

The potency of the two jobs' combos relative to each other is irrelevant. Its about the potency of the combo itself relative to the jobs' other combos in their rotation.

[NFaelivrin]

except that power slash combo actually has more potency than butcher block combo
power slash 300 potency compared to 280 butcher block

Potency isn't equal across all jobs, otherwise PLD would be outdpsing nearly every class in the game with its 640 potency goring blade every 24 seconds. For Warrior, using Butcher's Block is a DPS gain, it's its strongest combo, and while its potency numbers look low Warrior benefits from having Maim, Storm's Eye (which no other tank can provide) and Deliverance's passive damage boost.

For DRK, which doesn't have nearly as many damage steroids as WAR, using Power Slash is a DPS loss compared to Delirium, as the Power Slash combo has 670 potency to Delirium's 680 and Dark Arts Soul Eater blows them both out of the water with its 800 total potency. The problem is that DRK needs to use its weakest combo to hold aggro, and Power Slash is DRK's ONLY COMBO that doesn't restore any MP when used. Less MP = Less Dark Arts = Lower DPS.

This problem becomes even more marked on PLD, which has no real ways to boost its aggro generation besides tank stance and FoF. The Rage of Halone combo not only has lower aggro modifiers than every other aggro combo in the game (meaning you have to use it more often), its also the biggest DPS loss, with a pitiful total potency of 610 vs. Royal Authority's 700 (that's nearly a 13% potency loss) and Goring Blade's 1020 potency.

Patch 3.2 made this problem worse, not better, by lowering overall tank DPS (which many saw coming) but compensating for aggro not by increasing the aggro modifiers on combos, but by building it into tank stances, which means that holding even single target aggro outside of tank stances (a popular way to optimize play in raids with tight dps checks) requires you to spam these highly undesirable combos even more. Warrior doesn't have this problem because Butcher's Block is never undesirable to use.

[Reynhart]

idk where those scores come from but thats not how tier list are determined.

Yes, this is

You make statistics on each match up (as you said, taken from tournaments), bring it down to "out-of-ten win/loss" ratio, and then adds everything.

and yes tempered will is a flaw. Its cooldown is far too long and the move itself is far too situational with no side benefit.

It still has no impact in the end. IF PLD did more damage than WAR, it could have an even weaker Tempered Will that no one would care.

As for Divine Veil, yes, cross-classing cure is totally worth it...because you don't need 5 meaningful cross-class skill, so why not take cure ?

[NFaelivrin]

Yes yes, your cry thread totally had something to do with the changes they mentioned about all tanks awhile back.

Now, go complain about something else they have already announced they will change and be smug after...

If SE hadn't received a massive amount of negative feedback regarding the utterly awful state of Paladin in 3.0 I guarantee you the class would still be unchanged, as they've shown a massive reluctance to actually make PLD good, and when people started complaining about tank balance their original response was essentially just "working as intended". Even the 3.2 changes, which they delayed as much as they possibly could, are underwhelming numbers changes that barely address the fact Paladin is, quite possibly, the worst designed class in the game. SE devs firmly believe in the "Paladin best defensive tank" meme even if all objective data points to this being nothing more than a mirage.

[Gameplayzero]

Ye

Thanks for sharing that. for divine veil alone now cure is worth it. Before? Not at all.

but you lead into my point. Besides foresight warrior doesn't have many/any cooldowns or tools that nobody cares for. Dark has a few awkward stuff but not so much because of the tools, but mainly between OT and MT (blood price, dark dance + dark arts, and reprisal as OT). Other than that I "don't think" (as I don't use dark) dark has tools you completely ignore in most situations. Thats not good design to me.

BUT a lot of useless cooldowns in PvE have GREAT usage in PvP. Thats probably why tempered is probably there. Getting pushed off cliffs is a big deal in certain modes. Oddly enough besides the short burst warrior DID before this patch, nothing of theirs really stands out for pvp in comparison to paladin with their normal toolkit. Stun lock, silence, tempered, cover. Thats pretty cool honestly.

[Sida]

I hear many people say AST and their nocturnal sect is no good for anything, it needs to be worked on.. then I hear that in PvP it makes them near OP..

[Dualblade]

I hear many people say AST and their nocturnal sect is no good for anything, it needs to be worked on.. then I hear that in PvP it makes them near OP..

In PvE it apprantly isn't good, while PvP its pretty much OP, or atleast used to be I believe. Thought it had gotten nerfed somewhat in 3.1? (Don't PvP much personally.)

[Kuwagami]

We were ALL nerfed. We all lost 20% of our damage, WAR lost 20% of its self-healing (except for Thrill which was arguably buffed, sorta), and DRK and PLD have to use enmity combos way more often than before resulting in an even larger DPS loss.

Fun fact : the dps increase of PLD made that they were the only tank job NOT losing dps with the VIT/STR rework nerf. 900 before, 900 now. That translates into the dummies too. PLDs are 30-40 points under DRK, which are 60-80 points under WAR

[Reynhart]

for divine veil alone now cure is worth it. Before? Not at all.

Absolutely

Thats not good design to me

On that, we agree too.
When I say it's not a "flaw", it's still a bit of a problem. Why give so many skills if, in the end, only the damage you do matters ? The game lacks complexity to have already that many jobs.
And I fear the future expansions which will bring even more jobs in the balance.

BUT a lot of useless cooldowns in PvE have GREAT usage in PvP.

The thing is, we have special actions for PvP. It would be fun to switch some of them as I'm sure some PvP actions would be great for PvE.

[Valkyrie-Amber]

Fun fact : the dps increase of PLD made that they were the only tank job NOT losing dps with the VIT/STR rework nerf. 900 before, 900 now. That translates into the dummies too. PLDs are 30-40 points under DRK, which are 60-80 points under WAR

Yup cause now the difference is only under 150dps it’s not a major issue now. Before the difference was quite a lot bigger like what was it wars hitting 300ish over drks who hit 80-140ish over pld.

Though still would be nice if warriors lost a bit more dps to be on scale with drk then plds dps would be fine on the scale in quote.

The thing we need is the enmity modifiers set to maybe 3.2 lol to match patch 3.2 well 2.7 isn’t high enough to cover the loss of tank dps to hold hate like it was before changes even for pld was far easier to pull all in sword oath.