Goodbye strength tanks. Let us never be forgotten.

[TheUltimateSeph]

Are all you posts sarcastic then?

Wouldn't call it attacking you more asking why you feel one is ok while the other isn't.

If I want to attack you i'd insult you directly not by trying to discuss something.




Also on your question I don't believe either vit or str tanks are 'bad'

I feel I should clarify that when I defend ice mages and auto attackers and lancers in void ark I have never said those players are good. I do in fact believe they are bad but that I still think they should play however they want. I think STR tanks are bad because they aren't as good as VIT tanks at actually tanking. This entire argument of STR tanks vs VIT tanks comes down to subjective personal opinion anyway. I'm really just here cause I'm bored so I couldn't care less who is deemed right or wrong either.

[Edewen]

I feel I should clarify that when I defend ice mages and auto attackers and lancers in void ark I have never said those players are good. I do in fact believe they are bad but that I still think they should play however they want. I think STR tanks are bad because they aren't as good as VIT tanks at actually tanking. This entire argument of STR tanks vs VIT tanks comes down to subjective personal opinion anyway. I'm really just here cause I'm bored so I couldn't care less who is deemed right or wrong either.

As you said, that is a personal opinion. Str or Vit didn't make you bad, it simply made the healers have very little wiggle room when you were gearing to have just enough health to survive the tank buster.

What makes a tank is 4 things really

1. Threat: If you don't have threat, you aren't a tank
2. Mitigation: proper cool-down usage to do everything you can to help your healers
3. Dodging: Nothing is worse than having to stop laying down dots and heal simply bc the tank was too lazy to move
4. Maximizing DPS: To be clear, this means raids dps. This could be many things, from not moving the boss needlessly, popping group cool-downs so healers can pump out more, and yes, maximizing yourself.

Good tanks do the first 3. Great tanks can do it all. And up to this point, even though yuo may not like it, I wasn't a big fan either, it is irrefutable FACT that in order to be a great tank and give everything you had to win, you had to wear str gear and trust your healers to not need the wiggle room because it was the ideal way to maximize the groups damage output.

[Gyson]

As you said, that is a personal opinion. Str or Vit didn't make you bad, it simply made the healers have very little wiggle room when you were gearing to have just enough health to survive the tank buster.

What makes a tank is 4 things really

1. Threat: If you don't have threat, you aren't a tank
2. Mitigation: proper cool-down usage to do everything you can to help your healers
3. Dodging: Nothing is worse than having to stop laying down dots and heal simply bc the tank was too lazy to move
4. Maximizing DPS: To be clear, this means raids dps. This could be many things, from not moving the boss needlessly, popping group cool-downs so healers can pump out more, and yes, maximizing yourself.

Good tanks do the first 3. Great tanks can do it all. And up to this point, even though yuo may not like it, I wasn't a big fan either, it is irrefutable FACT that in order to be a great tank and give everything you had to win, you had to wear str gear and trust your healers to not need the wiggle room because it was the ideal way to maximize the groups damage output.

And that's fine if you're in a static that's fairly familiar with each other's playstyle. However, rarely are those the circumstances for most tanks (or for most of their time spent tanking), and expecting random strangers to perform well with "very little wiggle room" is just inviting trouble. And for what? What has a STR tank pugging along with everyone else in Void Ark really added to anything? In the grand scheme of things a negligible increase in overall raid DPS at the cost of a respectable amount of health that requires the healers to babysit them more closely than they should need to. With as flaky as PUGs can be, a single wipe in a 24 man raid can lead to a vote-abandon. Why in the world would any reasonable tank increase the risk of causing that mess by not gearing for survivability instead?

When I'm tanking with friends and we're failing a DPS check, I'll toss on some STR gear because every little bit helps. But most of the time, in most of this game, it is completely unnecessary and (I would argue) adding additional risk for nothing. I doubt most people care if a STR tank can cut a 25 minute dungeon run down to 23 minutes. They do mind, though, if said tank runs out of health and the resulting wipe wastes everyone's time with a lengthy run back to the failed encounter to spend even more time trying again.

These STR/VIT tank arguments go 'round and 'round as the people participating in them try to pretend that their STR builds are critical to tanking since everyone is (incoming B.S.) working on cutting edge content all the time. Yet we all know that just isn't the case for most players. A VIT tank is not bad or a "newbie" because they chose not to gear for STR for the majority of pugged content in this game - they're just wisely erring on the side of caution. I can respect that. I can not respect a tank who is choosing to instead risk significant delays for extremely minor gains and bragging rights on a DPS meter.

Using STR accessories instead of VIT definitely had its place. Great, settled. However, for the other 99% of scenarios (which always seem to be ignored in these discussions) it was a bad idea, and I'm super-happy that SE is removing that choice from the hands of players who couldn't figure out the difference between the right and wrong time to spec for STR.

Everyone in this thread will pretend that doesn't include them. And that was a big part of the problem.

[Odett]

And that's fine if you're in a static that's fairly familiar with each other's playstyle. However, rarely are those the circumstances for most tanks (or for most of their time spent tanking), and expecting random strangers to perform well with "very little wiggle room" is just inviting trouble. And for what? What has a STR tank pugging along with everyone else in Void Ark really added to anything? In the grand scheme of things a negligible increase in overall raid DPS at the cost of a respectable amount of health that requires the healers to babysit them more closely than they should need to. With as flaky as PUGs can be, a single wipe in a 24 man raid can lead to a vote-abandon. Why in the world would any reasonable tank increase the risk of causing that mess by not gearing for survivability instead?

Please educate yourself on the benefits that strength tanking brings other than more DPS before incorrectly equating Vitality to survivability. Most pro-VIT arguments come from misinformation, I wonder why.

I doubt most people care if a STR tank can cut a 25 minute dungeon run down to 23 minutes.

Lol, it's much more than that.

Lol, it is so sadly not.



What's extremely foolish is assuming you feeling comfortable with an encounter (while knowing next to nothing about everyone else in your dungeon-run/raid-group) is all you need to remove all risk and succeed.

If you think that having 270 less STR makes such a miniscule difference, refer to my first comment. If you still equate Vitality to survivability and fail to understand how STR also boosts survivability, again, read my first comment.

[Gyson]

Lol, it's much more than that.

Lol, it is so sadly not.

What, do you think you've been cutting dungeon run times in half or something by swapping in some STR accessories? Well that's a pleasant dream. Completely ridiculous, but pleasant.

Once you get enough HP to feel comfortable in an encounter, as long as you play your job correctly and use your cooldowns, STR will benefit you much more than extra HP will. If you're not doing cutting-edge content, and don't feel confident enough in your HP and want to make it bigger, that's fine too. To state that a STR tank is "bad" while knowing absolutely nothing about STR tanking from lack of personal experience, however, is extremely foolish.

What's extremely foolish is assuming you feeling comfortable with an encounter (while knowing next to nothing about everyone else in your dungeon-run/raid-group) is all you need to remove all risk and succeed.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

What's extremely foolish is assuming you feeling comfortable with an encounter (while knowing next to nothing about everyone else in your dungeon-run/raid-group) is all you need to remove all risk and succeed.

Thing is, Warriors could easily compensate through their own self-healing. STR allowed them to heal staggeringly high amounts. There's a reason they are the only job (so far) that has solo'd Titan EX. Regardless, the difference in overall group DPS was significant when tanks wore full STR compared to VIT. No fight in the game required the wealth of HP. And frankly, good STR tanks could handle an inexperience healer.

[Odett]

I I think STR tanks are bad because they aren't as good as VIT tanks at actually tanking.

So you want people to give you reasons why STR tanking is viable but don't supply your own and use circular logic?

Let me educate you a little:

More STR means relying less on your enmity combo, letting you focus more on DPS and utility combos. Enmity for the sake of enmity is completely useless if you are not at risk of losing agro.

Stronger self-heals: your self-heals as a tank (Clemency, Souleater, Equillibrium, anything+Bloodbath) scale directly off attack power. Have you seen the massive amounts of HP you can recover as a WAR with Deliverance+Bloodbath+Berserk+Internal Release? Go pull 12 mobs and double Decimate and just laugh as you self-heal for godly amounts.

Actually surviving through Living Dead.

More DPS, which is its own form of mitigation, as killing stuff faster reduces the amount of time you spend on it. Before you say "but that's the DPS job", no, it's not, it can be anyone's job, because there is no cap on how much damage a group can do.

Once you get enough HP to feel comfortable in an encounter, as long as you play your job correctly and use your cooldowns, STR will benefit you much more than extra HP will. If you're not doing cutting-edge content, and don't feel confident enough in your HP and want to make it bigger, that's fine too. To state that a STR tank is "bad" while knowing absolutely nothing about STR tanking from lack of personal experience, however, is extremely foolish.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

I feel I should clarify that when I defend ice mages and auto attackers and lancers in void ark I have never said those players are good. I do in fact believe they are bad but that I still think they should play however they want. I think STR tanks are bad because they aren't as good as VIT tanks at actually tanking. This entire argument of STR tanks vs VIT tanks comes down to subjective personal opinion anyway. I'm really just here cause I'm bored so I couldn't care less who is deemed right or wrong either.

Just because they pay a sub does not entitlement them to play at a piss poor level without repercussion. Sure, GMs aren't going to ban them or anything, but people in their parties to have the right to be a little miffed at someone refusing to hit positonals or play Black Mage properly. Now I will say this is not the same as being sub-optimal. A healer, for instance, can still be good without DPSing. While it may slow down the clear speed, they are still effectively doing their job, albeit not to its fullest potential. Ice Mages are patently ignoring a large portion of their skills solely due to laziness.

In short, while they technically have the right to play however they like. People have a right to call them out on it.