There are already two dps-tank jobs, please don't make Paladin the third.

[Brian_]

Tank adjustments will involve making stance-switching equally convenient for all tank jobs

This is from their most recent Famitsu interview.

So while the details aren't out yet, it seems they are going in the direction I detailed -- and it's the logical direction.

Why potency buffs do not make sense is because outside of abilities with enmity modifiers, potency is universal. It doesn't matter where it comes from. It's a sum that is viewed as potency per second. Even if they change SwO to buff weapon skill / ability potencies, the cumulative potency per second would need to be the same as the current SwO. If they don't make it the same, then outside of changing SwO, you are also just asking them to straight up buff the damage component. In that case, you could also just buff the added potency to auto attacks with the current SwO and achieve the same result.

[Violette]

Are you being an idiot? The reason we suggest potency buffs is BECAUSE of enmity. Because PLD has less generation than drk/war. Because the sword oath as it is is a failure. If they want to keep SwO as it is, it has to be potency buffs, at least to RoH so it generates competitive enmity with drk and war, in and out of tank stance.

Yes, they can make SwO a % multiplication of all damage. But that doesn't fix paladin being trash in ShO.

[Brian_]

PLD having less enmity generation than DRK and WAR has nothing to do with SwO. So, why are you trying to change SwO to deal with that issue? Are you being an idiot?

When you change SwO, you should be addressing the problems with Oaths. Buffing potencies doesn't fix the inherent clunkiness with Oaths.

If you want to fix enmity, maybe you should target the obvious issues with PLD enmity instead like the potency / enmity modifier of RoH and the general undesirability of using RoH, the potency / enmity modifier of shield swipe, the crippling damage penalty of ShO, etc.

[Shurrikhan]

PLD having less enmity generation that DRK and WAR has nothing to do with SwO. So, why are you trying to change SwO to deal with that issue? Are you being an idiot?

When you change SwO, you should be addressing the problems with Oaths. Buffing potencies doesn't fix the inherent clunkiness with Oaths.

If you want to fix enmity, maybe you should target the obvious issues with PLD enmity instead like the potency / enmity modifier of RoH and the general undesirability of using RoH, the potency / enmity modifier of shield swipe, the crippling damage penalty of ShO, etc.

No one's asking for increased potencies as an alternative to fixing the clunkiness of Oaths. We're asking that in addition to the fix, SwO's contribution be moved into a more flexible area.

Auto-attack has no embedded enmity modifier. Buff it by 300 potency, and you get 300 potency more enmity out of it. Buff Savage Blade by 100 potency and you get the same enmity difference. (For point of comparison, Skull Sunder would only need 67...) Both are damage differences, but only auto-attack buffs are only a damage increase.

The only idea that's being tossed around is the idea of moving potency from something that in this game has zero added effects, let alone enmity multipliers, to one that can--from auto-attacks to weaponskills (two out of five of which have enmity mods), and possibly abilities (two out of three of which have enmity mods). Same dps. More enmity. Improved Sword Oath threat.

(If you have a decent Monk in the group, the PLDs still not going to be overtaking the MT's enmity any faster than him, but at least the PLD when tanking can hold onto his enmity while stance-danced into SwO without being more obliged to use enmity combos than a Warrior or Dark Knight would in their respective DPS stances. That still leaves a decent gap between PLD and others' tank stances, but at least this much helps.)

Edit: I'd still love to see RoH potency either increased to 280 and/or enmity modifer to 5.5 (or 6.0 if Savage Blade is left at 3.0). If Savage Blade is increased to 4.5 to 5.0, I wouldn't mind leaving RoH's enmity mod untouched. A nice improvement to ShO damage would be if it just didn't reduce ability damage (worth almost a 3% increase to ShO dps iirc, or a little over 9% if it only diminished weaponskills--too much).

[Brian_]

SwO should only be a damage increase. That's the point. Do you not see how counter intuitive it is to add more enmity onto our DPS stance? When I raid on WAR, my MT already despises the way I creep on his enmity. Why people want PLD to do the same is bewildering. I'm having flash backs of 2.X and ripping hate due to RoH spam.

Like I said, if you want to increase enmity generation, just increase enmity generation. Bring RoH and SB in line with HS and BB or SS and PS. Buff the potency on RoH to properly account for PLD's lack of a maim or dark side to lessen the damage penalty of their tank stance (no, FoF is not enough). Give them a means of burst enmity on par with DA PS or unchained + berserked BB. There are countless more logical ways to fix PLD's enmity generation without encroaching on the realm of DPS.

[Aaliyahrose]

I wanted to MT as DRK in Thordan EX the other day with a PLD in the group and was totally against being the OT PLD. In his words, "I can fake it, but it won't be great."

It made me cry a little on the inside to think that the majority of players see PLD only as a MT.

It's upsetting more than frustrating due to the fact that SwO doesn't even give a %dmg increase like Darkside. Only a 50 point potency increase to AAs. Not bad, but could be better (5-10% dmg increase maybe?). I don't blame him for having me OT, but there needs to a way to balance this form of damage.

Percents would be easier to work with instead of increasing potency points imo.

[Violette]

SwO should only be a damage increase. That's the point. Do you not see how counter intuitive it is to add more enmity onto our DPS stance? When I raid on WAR, my MT already despises the way I creep on his enmity. Why people want PLD to do the same is bewildering. I'm having flash backs of 2.X and ripping hate due to RoH spam.

Like I said, if you want to increase enmity generation, just increase enmity generation. Bring RoH and SB in line with HS and BB or SS and PS. Buff the potency on RoH to properly account for PLD's lack of a maim or dark side to lessen the damage penalty of their tank stance (no, FoF is not enough). Give them a means of burst enmity on par with DA PS or unchained + berserked BB. There are countless more logical ways to fix PLD's enmity generation without encroaching on the realm of DPS.

Once again, should we change to tank stance only tanking in 5.....? days, this discussion about OT enmity is moot.

BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT

Humour me for a moment (also while we're at it way to miss the point of everything I say. I'll make it simple this time).

Increasing SwO enmity is simply another thing to bring Paladin in line with WAR/DRK. When a DRK uses PS w/o Grit, they get that sweet 15% damage modifier helping their enmity. When a WAR uses BB in Deliverance, they get 5% damage + 20% from maim + up to 10% extra crit chance, that will increase the enmity modifier there as well. When a paladin does it, they get Sweet FA. Which hurts their ability to sustain DPS in SwO w/o losing enmity. SB>RA (not RO mb) was meant to help cover this gap, but due to RoH having sweet FA enmity as it is outside of FoF, they are not able to establish enough of a lead to capitalize on this ability to use an enmity combo as part of their highest dps combo to sustain enmity.

Because as you said, Paladin does not have burst enmity like DRK/WAR.

So what are we proposing SHOULD happen, and why it helps:

Potency Increases to Combo Finishers (and maybe SW/CoS/Flash idk fuck flash).
-RoH to 280/300 in line with BB/PS (respectively):
Simply put, sustained MT enmity is too low as currently is and this is also hurting MT dps, so it gotta get fixed. Idk if anyone disagrees on this.

-SW/CoS potency up by little bits:
Helps with Paladin sustained Damage/AoE damage, two areas as mentioned, lacking.

-Flash (effective) Potency up by 20/30:
Better sustains AoE enmity, so Paladins can focus more on DPS.

All 3 changes here, are simply to help with MT paladin Enmity and slightly with DPS.

Sword Oath to a damage multiplier:
-Increases non-SwO enmity due to multiplicative effect on Enmity Modifiers, as opposed to straight up AA damage increase.

I.E.
100 potency AA + 50 potency AA + 260 potency RoH (410 potency total) as opposed to say, 115 Potency AA + 299 potency RoH (414 potency total, but that is more enmity).
Loss of extra crit chance hurts slightly, but gotta do what cha gotta do.

So changes are made because yes, in the END Paladin OT dps is not fucking horrid and Paladins have a lot of high potencies to play with.
So we change some numbers, roll potencies here or there to make up for the dps lost with the changes and end up with higher potency enmity modified moves outside of ShO, which brings it in line with the same luxury DRK and WAR currently has.

We will hopefully see higher ShO enmity gen/dps, which will then mean PLD can also swap to SwO sooner so they can dps harder and sustain their enmity lead BETTER than they currently can.

[Shurrikhan]

SwO should only be a damage increase. That's the point. Do you not see how counter intuitive it is to add more enmity onto our DPS stance? When I raid on WAR, my MT already despises the way I creep on his enmity. Why people want PLD to do the same is bewildering. I'm having flash backs of 2.X and ripping hate due to RoH spam.

Like I said, if you want to increase enmity generation, just increase enmity generation. Bring RoH and SB in line with HS and BB or SS and PS. Buff the potency on RoH to properly account for PLD's lack of a maim or dark side to lessen the damage penalty of their tank stance (no, FoF is not enough). Give them a means of burst enmity on par with DA PS or unchained + berserked BB. There are countless more logical ways to fix PLD's enmity generation without encroaching on the realm of DPS.

If SwO is going to do literally nothing but increased (ST) damage, then the solution to the Oath issue is simple. You remove SwO, and buff AA out of ShO. Unless it alters the dynamics or gameplay in some way (and we're pretty much all in agreement that sacrificing a GCD just to use a long-windowed stance, in its current state, is undesirable), there's just no reason to have it. It provides nix for gameplay. It's a trait. Why's it taking up an ability slot? To make sure I'm paying double mana, in two parts, for the next Shield Oath? Does that even seem a good thing for Grit?

Edit: though again, all this is irrelevant, as we'll all apparently be moved towards WAR style stance-swapping regardless. SwO will still be a ~13% increase to ST dps, making it generally the strongest but least flexible dps stance. And Grit... I wonder how it will be changed given only a single stance... I do hope it'll at least be changed to a %AA buff so its contribution isn't nerfed with every slow weapon. Still won't scale at all with Skill Speed though, sadly.

[Violette]

Edit: though again, all this is irrelevant, as we'll all apparently be moved towards WAR style stance-swapping regardless. SwO will still be a ~13% increase to ST dps, making it generally the strongest but least flexible dps stance. And Grit... I wonder how it will be changed given only a single stance... I do hope it'll at least be changed to a %AA buff so its contribution isn't nerfed with every slow weapon. Still won't scale at all with Skill Speed though, sadly.

Grit could just become an ability.
So could the other stances, like with war.

SwO could become a buff like DS/MAIM/Deliverance, maybe upkept at cost of mana over time? Idk, it's hard to think outside of established norms.

[Shurrikhan]

Grit could just become an ability.
So could the other stances, like with war.

SwO could become a buff like DS/MAIM/Deliverance, maybe upkept at cost of mana over time?

Do we have any abilities with a mana cost though? I'd rather it still have some mana cost attached than half to be locked into/out of Grit for 10s, if not more (given that at that point Deliverance/Defiance would be inferior to Grit/Oaths; swapping to Deliverance could waste HP and swapping to Defiance does not immediately increase eHP).

I'd also rather not have a mana drain on Oaths, especially Shield Oath. I like keeping our mana free for Flash and Clemency.

Idk, it's hard to think outside of established norms.

If only to throw out some ideas outside the norms... (Just, again, for irrelevant fun.)

The design here is far too complicated, but shows a different way of dealing with a time-spending swap and its respective window. These are still never optimal over time (worth dropping stance just to repop it).

Charged Oaths (abilities with anywhere from a 1s to 5s cast, off GCD):

• Invoke: Sword - charges your blade at mana cost over time for up to 5 seconds. Increases attack speed by 12% + 6% per second of charge, diminishing by 3% per second, starting upon your next weaponskill. Will charge at any enemy targeted at end of cast for 10 yalms + 3 yalms at 30 potency per second of charge. Applies Sword Oath, increasing your auto-attack damage by 67%.
  (67% is just .09% short of its value on a 2.24s blade, [3s blade = 50%, 1.5s blade = 100%)

  This attack speed bonus diminishes over time, starting at 12% +6% per second of charge and diminishing at 3% per second, starting on your first attack. Charges are all nearly as efficient as each other, but technically least efficient in mid-range. Minimum charge length of 1 second.

Efficiency given as [(buff time (1 + (attack speed bonus/2))) / buff time + charge time].

Charge Time-----Initial %----Avg %----Duration----Efficiency
1 second-----------18%---------9%---------6s--------(6*1.09)/6+1 = .93
2 seconds----------24%--------12%--------8s--------(8*1.12)/8+2 = .90
3 seconds----------30%--------15%-------10s--------(10*1.15)/10+3 = .8846
4 seconds--------- 36%--------18%-------12s--------(12*1.18)/12+4 = .885
5 seconds----------42%--------21%-------14s--------(14*1.21)/14+5 = .8916

Capable of dashing 10 yalms + 3 yalms per second of charge, and will deal 30 potency per second of charge, to maximum of 25 yalms and 150 potency.

• Invoke: Shield - charges your shield at mana cost over time for up to 5 seconds, granting additional block strength and rating for an amount an duration based on charge time while drawing in enemies within 6 yalms towards you. Applies Shield Oath at the end of your cast, decreasing damage taken and dealt by 20% and increasing enmity by 130% and hit chance by 5%. Ability damage is not affected by Shield Oath.

I haven't worked out the details for Shield at all, as this is mostly just for the point of Sword Oath perspectives. Once in Oath, these abilities would either turn into just a drop, or they'd allow you to use these effects again, on an internal cooldown (can always swap, but can't spam improved blocks or dashes). May change out Divine Veil for an Oath-dependent Inspire. May somewhat vary the effects of Cover with Oath. May have Oaths build a unique resource, etc. etc....

Background changes:

• Can now block while casting.
• Skill Speed and Spell Speed merged into a single stat, Speed.
• Shield Swipe now partly scales with Block Strength instead of Weapon Damage. While on cooldown, Shield Swipe has a 30% chance to refresh on block. Still requires a block to activate. Lighter shields don't hit quite as hard, but more frequently.
• Shelltron - blocks the next physical attack and all following physical attacks for 1.5 seconds thereafter. Cooldown varies with shield type. [Tower 30, Kite 24, Buckler 18]

Actually, one other thing Sword Oath could do, if potencies were already adjusted and GLD/PLD had a naturally much more powerful AA, is to simply be a cleave mode...
Deal 25% of weaponskill damage to each surrounding mob, for 20% greater TP cost per mob (to a maximum of double). Could limit that to weaponskills if you want it to be primarily an OT thing (esp. if still exclusive with Shield Oath), or reduce the % a bit and include abilities and/or auto-attacks. Could reduce main-target damage for a bit greater AoE (split the damage, but add a % to total per enemy struck) or keep that dual-ness (full ST, partial AoE) a PLD unique thing.