There are already two dps-tank jobs, please don't make Paladin the third.

[Duelle]

Right, I just find that this fact makes zero sense. The animations literally stop, but the AAs continue, or can be unleashed immediately before the actual tank-buster. It looks and feels terrible. Rather than using this to promote a fix to Shelltron itself, I wish they'd just get that shit out of the game. The game already feels plentifully unreactive without clipping or muting mob animations.

I might be wrong in this, but I get the feeling it'd affect the flow of battle on some level. Granted, auto-attack damage from boss mobs is not huge damage so this might not be as big a problem as I'm thinking.

That said, I also still think that 5 seconds is far longer than is needed to fulfill that intent. With 5 seconds, I could block literally every mob in front of me while moving towards gather on a sprint pull, or have an extra Inner Beast at no cost (30% every 30 seconds vs. 20% every 19-23 seconds +/- Infuriate).

Assuming our beloved animation/activation delay remains in the game, you'd probably end up getting 3-4 seconds in total under the effect. In fairness the effect could be reduced to 3 seconds, but that'd require lowering the cooldown some as well, IMO.

Just got through a Ex rl Moratorium where I spent what felt like one in every 9 GCDs self-healing. He cast exactly 9 single-target heals in a 3 1/2 minute fight, only two of them on me leaving me at 2k hp to continue spamming Boil. I don't think I've ever loved Shelltron's MP generation so much. Sadly, if Shelltron was made more useful or reliable in these other contexts, we might well lose that MP generation.

Assuming they were to make Sheltron "reliable", what I think that'd do is require a removal/redesign of Bulwark (going back to my point on Sheltron and Bulwark conflicting). That could result in it being replaced by another MP recovery tool.

I know they will never do it, but wouldn't it be awesome if PLD had the Dragon's Dogma Mystic Knight ability Magic Cannon? We could summon it then everyone in the party could then auto-attack the orb to rain death on the battlefield.

Well, while I mentioned DD only because of how you're rewarded for perfect blocking with a shield, yeah this would be pretty neat. And yeah, SE would never do this.

[Brian_]

If you are losing auto attacks while moving around as a tank, that is a player issue, not a balance issue. Forced face target, strafing, or just better timing are all ways to work around AA loss.

Sword Oath is fine outside of one aspect. That is the amount of time it takes for it to be a net DPS gain. If you are swapping to Sword Oath from Shield Oath and back to Shield Oath again at any point, you need something like 6 GCDs worth of time in SwO just to break even in net DPS. That makes SwO very clunky and counter intuitive to use. Some common work arounds is to swap to SwO and never back to ShO or to time your stance swaps to sync with fight down-time.

The common suggestion is to remove SwO from the GCD while keeping ShO on the GCD and to change oaths to no longer break combos. This doesn't impact the overall damage boost of SwO (which is fine) but makes it so that you can cash out on SwO damage returns faster and smoother. To me, this is a perfectly fine adjustment.

A lot of the suggestions here miss the point almost entirely. Altering SwO to a straight damage boost equal to the current SwO's AA boost does not fix anything.

[Brian_]

And, PLD's enmity issues stem from a simple fact. Other tanks have burst enmity openers that give them a large enmity lead they can ride for a very, very long time. In the case of skilled players, they can ride it for the whole fight. PLD doesn't. This is why NINs are so important for PLDs or why teams with PLDs often opt to have the WAR open instead.

So, knowing that problem, there are 2 solutions. Either you give PLDs burst enmity generation or you give them unconditional consistent enmity generation.

I mentioned WAR earlier. They have both. They have massive enmity openers with Unchained, IR and Berserk. And, they have unconditional consistent enmity generation because Butcher's Block is their strongest combo -- they can maximize their DPS and generate good enmity at the same time.

I think the better solution is to give PLDs unconditional consistent enmity generation. One way to do this is to buff Shield Swipe's potency and/or enmity modifier. This would help PLD's consistent enmity generation while also helping their burst a bit. And, it wouldn't impact their OTing in any way. The other way is to change their skills so that their enmity combo can be used as part of their regular rotation with no set-backs like Butcher's Block is for WARs.

[Fernosaur]

And, PLD's enmity issues stem from a simple fact. Other tanks have burst enmity openers that give them a large enmity lead they can ride for a very, very long time. In the case of skilled players, they can ride it for the whole fight. PLD doesn't. This is why NINs are so important for PLDs or why teams with PLDs often opt to have the WAR open instead.

This is so true. Even though PLD can have some decent burst enmity with two FoF'd RoH combos, it still isn't enough to keep a good lead and take advantage of the FoF damage buff for GB and RA. I am able to keep hate for most boss fights, even with a DRG and BLM, just by doing that, but the way the enmity bars get closer and closer is just depressing, add to that the WAR OT being on your toes 100% of the time and it's just so evident that PLD has terrible enmity generation. The final kick in the nuts is that Defiance and Grit actually have a slightly bigger enmity multiplier than Shield Oath...

The funniest thing is losing hate to a Diurnal Astrologian on Thordan EX thanks to their crazy enmity.

[Launched]

I find it hard to believe PLD has so many enmity problems when their DPS combo has Savage Blade in it and Circle of Scorn/Shield Swipe both generate additional enmity. If you do plan on tanking in Sword Oath, PLD's damage isn't far off DRK's and they should generate more enmity overall because they actually have enmity modifiers on the skills they use.

The final kick in the nuts is that Defiance and Grit actually have a slightly bigger enmity multiplier than Shield Oath...

No, all 3 tank stances have a 2.3x modifier.

[Violette]

I find it hard to believe PLD has so many enmity problems when their DPS combo has Savage Blade in it and Circle of Scorn/Shield Swipe both generate additional enmity. If you do plan on tanking in Sword Oath, PLD's damage isn't far off DRK's and they should generate more enmity overall because they actually have enmity modifiers on the skills they use.



No, all 3 tank stances have a 2.3x modifier.

15/20% constant free damage up as opposed to fuck you SwO yeah 13% damage at best but no ShO.

But I take offence to the whole "paladin damage close to a dark Knights". It's not, unless the dark haming it in. Not like darks have superior enmity, better dot access, more powerful buffs with better ratios, high damage reactionary procs, more ogcds to deal damage with, potentially higher potency skills,....constant 15% damage up.

But no no, Paladins are close. Like summoners are close to black mages. Also they generate no better enmity because sword oath is trashy.

If you have to dodge an AOE and can't auto attack then that's a personal problem or you're not strafing. SwO is really strong and is why, as an OT, PLD is pretty competitive. I think touching SwO isn't really a thing they should do, though there are probably ways they could go about it.

Find the competitive paladin http://www.fflogs.com/rankings/7#class=Tanks

[Syzygian]

No, all 3 tank stances have a 2.3x modifier.

ShO is only 2.0x. RoH is also only 5x compared to BB and PS 5.5x iirc.

If they fixed this then i have no idea why PLDs are struggling with hate.

[AlexiIvaniskavich]

......
Find the competitive paladin http://www.fflogs.com/rankings/7#class=Tanks

# 48 on Faust, doing 1460, which is 270 less than the number one. #90 on Oppressor, doing 1260 - 169 less than the number 1 spot.

A2s - #232, doing 1447, 463 less damage than the number 1 spot

A3s - #84 doing 1086, 133 behind #1

A4s - #83 with 1075, 172 behind #1

My Point -
On Single target encounters, a skilled PLD is going to always be behind their equally skilled counter parts, but while in SwO, the difference is not as vast as it is made out to be.
On Multi Target encounters - the difference is substantial (alert the press, groundbreaking news here)

The greater difference occurs when ShO is active. WAR and DRK both have other skills that lessen the ill effect that their respective tank stance has on their dps, PLD does not.

Personal testing -3 min, no food, no pot - in full OT mode v. MT mode (full ShO, modest use (4x total)of the RoH combo to maintain enmity) resulted in a net difference for me of 300 to 350 dps .

Both WAR and DRK have significantly stronger enmity generation and can drop tank stance sooner than a PLD can, without outside intervention. DRK is pretty much built on dropping Grit early on, WAR has BB, which generates both enmity and is the strongest dps combo in their kit. WAR can seamlessly phase in and out of tank stance. DRK has a gcd “penalty” to step into tank stance – but not when stepping out of tank stance.

Lessening the stance dance burden, adjusting enmity slightly, and easing the damage penalty in ShO would all be simple ways to adjust PLD without breaking it. TBH I am fine with PLD being 3rd in regard to dps while in OT mode. I take issue when it goes to being 3rd by a mile while in MT mode, especially when it offers as disjointed party utility as it presently does.

[Launched]

ShO is only 2.0x. RoH is also only 5x compared to BB and PS 5.5x iirc.

If they fixed this then i have no idea why PLDs are struggling with hate.

I am 100% sure tank stances are all 2.3x. Halone is still 5x.

[Aaliyahrose]

Switching from ShO to SwO with no DPS down time requires Spirits Within or CoS to be active for use after changing stance and FoF ready to be used to keep up with aggro. SwO is a great stance especially in A3S before Hand of Pain.
You can stay in SwO the entire phase without losing hate.
Maybe it's just me, but Sheltron isn't as clunky when dealing with cleave damage when you know its coming. 7/10 times Sheltron blocks the intended attack during the start of a pull and seconds after.
Once again, PLD is all about utility of their attacks and how you use them. Spirits Within must be a timed attack with your HP instead of blowing it when it's off CD. Circle of Scorn should be used immediately after changing stances if you are swapping constantly to keep up on hate and DPS.
Maybe I love PLD too much because of the different timings it has, but that is what its role is all about even more so than the other 2 tank roles.