Dear Dragoons. Your AoE is actually good.

[whiskeybravo]

I dont know where you people get that things from. Like spamming DS. I mean i never said in any context go and do nothing else.

Your own OP mentions nothing of an optional rotation for 3 to 4 enemies, only doomspike. Read it yourself.

Thats really the only point of contention from myself and others about drg aoe. We have the most in depth thread on the whole forum and do take some pride in advising ppl of optimal drg play. That even goes towards proving ideas right or wrong, criticism is necessary to weed out the BS and give credit to real contributions.

Resorting to learn2play, ad hominem responses, doesnt really help anyone improve. Give and take advice. Give and take criticism.

Cheers,

[FunkyBunch]

I came to this thread to see that DRGs can actually do AoE.
Please do the AoE thing instead of single target burst when there are 3+ enemies.

As a "crappy" BLM I cringe whenever a target gets bursted down when there are 5 or 6 enemies because it's a DPS loss for every AoE I do after that target is dead.
Ideally you want all the mobs dead at the same time. What's even worse is that when you burst them down like that, you're not even making the clear happen any faster until we're down to 2 mobs. Because I'm still doing damage to all of them and you're gradually focusing down enemies and the last ones that die are still the ones I was the only one doing damage to.

Basically assume it takes 30 seconds for me to kill a group of monsters by myself with just the tank and healer.
If you keep bursting down monsters and the group still takes 30 seconds to kill, you haven't helped.
Even if your AoE is weaker than your single target, if you're single targeting you're actually causing a group DPS loss despite having a higher personal DPS.

[Ashkendor]

lol actually I know that feeling And nobody commends you for high dps as a drg :x

I commend good DPS in dungeons, actually. I like seeing people that are good at their jobs.

In fact the low level players dont notice it and the "expert" runners always say how bad you are for using AoE without actually seeing the dps.
But usually those people dont do dps at all so its just annoying.
Its a rough life^^

I love seeing melee that can AoE. When I queue SCH with my WAR friend, he does big pulls regardless of class comp.

[Deus-ExMachina]

Ultimately this thread is a reminder for DRG who never even use any form of AOE (not even applying CT dot on more than 1 mob during a pull). When I run daily roulettes on my Warrior and I get into lvl 60 dungeons (expert and 60) it often happens that I run into DRG who simply refuse to use HT and BotD as a whole for whatever reason (you dont get legit answers anyway most of the time even when asked politely). So when I triple decimate pulls ranging from 4-8 mobs most of the time while also using blood bath and other defensive cooldowns to help the healer dish out some decent dmg too if confident and motivated enough and I see a DRG standing there trying to figure out the best thing to do in this situation and somehow coming up with the conclusion that the best course of action would be to actually spam FT combo without any buffs then it leaves me speechless. In this kind of situation almost every other rotation that in any form includes either DS or RoT would be better even when running out of tp as long as there is at least one other person who can play on a decent level. Even tho DF is generally considered as cesspool of bad play often times there is at least one other skilled person in the group as saving grace to compensate for one abysmal player. On the other hand if your group should really consist out of 3 players doing either only auto attacks or using the worst possible rotation for the situation at hand with an occational heal when necessary then IMHO it is better to accept the abandon penalty then giving out a free carry to lazy asses that can't be bothered to put in at least some effort (in this case why are people even playing this game if they cant be arsed to press different buttons in different situations). Of course opinions may differ from mine based on past experiences.

[JackFross]

Even if your AoE is weaker than your single target, if you're single targeting you're actually causing a group DPS loss despite having a higher personal DPS.

In a pull of 5-6, every single class benefits from using AoE. Death Blossom may be weak, but it's still 100 potency. 500-600 is only rivaled by Mutilate, which takes a full 30 seconds to match what you can do in ~2.

So I definitely agree with the idea of AoE being used in bigger pulls, as well, but it *is* worth noting that certain targets should be a priority, and killing them quicker can contribute to group dps. That big dumb crystal dog in Pharos Hard, for example, does obnoxious AoE targeted on not-tank targets. If that's the BLM, dps loss. If I, as a Dragoon, do a single-target rotation to "burn" that down (HT>CT>FT with gsk hitting everything), it ends up being beneficial to the raid before I start spreading dots, for example! (Though I generally will only do this if I have a ranged dps with me; if it's double melee idgaf)

But in general, yeah, if you're not doing AoE, you're a scrub. Plain and simple, and I do honestly think that, if you ask them to AoE and they refuse, it should be grounds for kicking them. Kicking a tank who can't hold hate and refuses to fix and causes wipes is cool. Kicking a healer who can't keep people alive is fine. Kicking someone who absolutely sucks at damage? That's somehow crossing a line. I don't get that.

[AlereRaeder]

... I don't get that.

it's mai 15 dollars! XD

[Keyln]

I'm noticing a rather large flaw in the arguments here.

At 6 Enemys (which you almost never hit with Doomspike, but if u sure u can use doomspike!) you already delt 11.160 potency with RoT.

In a pull of 5-6, every single class benefits from using AoE. Death Blossom may be weak, but it's still 100 potency. 500-600 is only rivaled by Mutilate, which takes a full 30 seconds to match what you can do in ~2.

The flaw here is that we're looking at the damage per total. And it is true that the TOTAL damage done increases with each use of a skill on a greater number of enemies. Where the flaw lies, though, is that the amount of damage done per enemy does NOT increase with the number of enemies hit with a skill. So, when we're talking about how long a fight lasts when using AoE abilities, it's not on the total damage done, but the damage done per enemy.

Think of it like this. NIN has an AoE skill that does 100 potency. Let's assume, for the sake of discussion, that translates to 100 damage per use, or 40 damage per second (assuming a 2.5 second recast time). So, if we took an enemy that has 1000 HP, it would take 25 seconds for the NIN using the 100 damage skill to take the enemy down. Now, if there were 12 enemies all with 1000 HP, it would still take 25 seconds to knock all of those enemies down at the same time.

On the other hand, a single target combo has a total of 670 potency, which I will translate to roughly 90 DPS (670/7.5 assuming 1 potency = 1 damage). So, that same 1000 HP enemy will take about 11 seconds to take down. And in a group of enemies, that translates to 11 seconds per enemy, so if there's a group larger than 3, then single target will take longer.

The other factor to consider is that using AoE abilities is a major TP drain, and that TP starvation is a major issue. Going back to the NIN example, the AoE move costs 120 TP per use. And assuming a 2.5 recast, that translates to 48 TP used per second. TP regenerates at 60 TP per 3 seconds, or 20 TP per second. So, this translates into a net loss of 28 TP per second. This means that, assuming the fight starts with a full TP bar, the NIN will run out of TP in roughly 36 seconds. If the fight lasts shorter than 36 seconds, the NIN will be fine. After 36 seconds, the NIN will be TP starved, and the DPS will drop dramatically.

On the other hand, single use will take a very long time to run out of TP. The total amount of TP used in the combo is 170 TP, which translates to roughly 23 TP per second. Compared to the 20 TP gain per second, that equates out to a net loss of roughly 3 TP per second. The NIN could go about 333 seconds before going into TP starvation.

I'm not saying that using AoE is always worse than using single target, but it depends on the situation. It depends on who the other DPS is, it depends on how much actual damage is done per enemy, it depends on the size of the group, and most importantly, it depends on how long each fight lasts.

I would be hesitant to make blanket statements.

[Alistaire]

That is the most well-thought out terrible statement I've heard in a while.

The main thing to look at is to get the pulls done quick.

At 6+ enemies most jobs are better off standing around waiting for tp to come back to do more aoe moves on them than doing single target moves.

There's 2 #s you'll see, "more damage per gcd", and "more damage per point of tp". When you do more damage per tp spent aoe'ing, it will always be better to do that than to do any form of single-target, even when you need to wait a tic to do another aoe move.

As for thread title, I think it's almost missing the point. Dragoons, ninjas, whoever, even if your aoe isn't "good" compared to other jobs, it doesn't mean it's ok to sit there and do even less than what your subpar aoe would do by hitting things single-target when your aoe would outmatch that.

The NIN could go about 333 seconds before going into TP starvation.

I'm sorry, if a single trash pull in a dungeon goes anywhere near that I'm ditchin.

[Keyln]

The main thing to look at is to get the pulls done quick.

I agree. The problem lies in that in, my opinion, the best ways to do the pulls "quick" is to do them efficiently. Pulling 12+ enemies with two melees may not be the most efficient way of clearing trash. That's what I'm saying.

At 6+ enemies most jobs are better off standing around waiting for tp to come back to do more aoe moves on them than doing single target moves.

Not really. TP regenerates at a 60 TP per 3 seconds, or 20 TP per second. Death Blossom, NIN's AoE move, is 120 TP per use. Thus, that translates to 16 DPS, which is a dramatic drop of 60% in DPS before TP starvation. In my opinion, that's not very efficient.

There's 2 #s you'll see, "more damage per gcd", and "more damage per point of tp". When you do more damage per tp spent aoe'ing, it will always be better to do that than to do any form of single-target, even when you need to wait a tic to do another aoe move.

Except that you forget that the damage done per use is split between the enemies. As I said earlier, when an AoE move is used, the damage is split evenly (with some notable exceptions). If I were to express the time it would take to take down a group of enemies using strictly AoE attacks, it would be T=lmHP/aDPSPE, where T is the time it would take down the group, lmHP is the monster with the largest HP pool, and aDPSPE is the average DPS per enemy. The main point is that when using strictly AoE moves, the time it takes down a group of enemies does not vary with the number of enemies.

Take this thought experiment. Let's say that there's a group of 5 enemies. 3 of them have 1000 HP, and 2 of them have 2000 HP. Using strictly AoE, and the numbers I used above, it would take 50 seconds to kill the group. However, if a mix of single target and AoE attacks are used, it would take 47 (25+11+11) seconds to kill the group. Factor in TP starvation, and I think it's pretty clear that using a mix of AoE and single target is the most efficient way of killing this group.

As for thread title, I think it's almost missing the point. Dragoons, ninjas, whoever, even if your aoe isn't "good" compared to other jobs, it doesn't mean it's ok to sit there and do even less than what your subpar aoe would do by hitting things single-target when your aoe would outmatch that.

And my point is that this entire thread is based on a faulty premise.

I'm sorry, if a single trash pull in a dungeon goes anywhere near that I'm ditchin.

You missed my point then. That 333 seconds is how long it would take a ninja, assuming a 2.5 recast time on abilities, to face TP starvation.

This can be calculated by using T=20-(TP used/(gcd*# of abilites)).

My entire point is that we should fight smarter, not harder.

[Alistaire]

Didn't miss any points, just countering with how pointless your numbers are. Talking about tp efficiency to the point where you say a guy can last 5 minutes in a pull is an utterly useless point.

As for the rest, I'm not even sure where to begin. Maybe put it this way simply, if you're at the point you're out of tp with 12 mobs to fight, as a ninja, you have 2 options: wait 2 ticks and do 1200 potency, or do 2 single target moves and do roughly 1/3 of that. It's not even close. At 6 mobs, it's 600 potency over the tp gained from 2 tics vs an average of about 440 potency on 2 single target moves. Those kind of differences add up.

And to say "pulling 12 mobs isn't the most efficient" is absurd, because at some point you're forgetting there's time saved in doing 1 pull instead of 2 or 3 pulls. Not to mention when you do bigger pulls the melee have more time between pulls to regenerate tp at the faster rate, rather than start fighting again every pack of 3 mobs and not get that benefit.

And the only drawback to "damage is split between the enemies" is if the tank+ healer can't handle the incoming damage but we're talking about dungeons here, and when that gets to be the case you pull smaller cause you're undergeared, not because it's more efficient to do so.

tl;dr your math is just really off. idk man. As much as I'd like to say "oh you showed numbers you must be right" if that were true nobody would ever fail a math test.