Dear Dragoons. Your AoE is actually good.

[CookieMonsta]

READ
Whoever still saying anything about TP please read again. Thank you.
Cant believe you still think thats a point. Ridiculous. Anyone who have trouble with TP and AoE should really work on either reading my posts or their way of using it.

& Multidot, lol til you dottet 3 targets you already lost so much damage and you have to redott almost immediatly after the 3rd mob.
That would mean you basically almost never use your main combo. Yeah thats efficient, you know that dotting up requires 4 skills per target right?
You can't be serious about that. You just cant. Seriously that would mean you would do no efficient damage the whole time.

And again again again: Geirskogul does 1000-1500 damage and require 4 skills. Thats 4 times 2,38 seconds to deal 1-1,5k damage to every enemy....every other AoE does that in 2 Skills or even one. (RoT2, DS 1)

For more information: please read what I already wrote abt it.
Really dont wana repeat over and over and over again.




No no no no no no no. Most common mob size. Thats straight up a lie.
Else extreme roulette and 60 roulette would be a pain.
There is not a single reason for single pulls, only if tank is a first timer with shitty equip.
Every good tank pulls at least 2-3 groups if possible, and it is most of the time.
But i already spoke about Enemy-Group Sizes.

As I said, reeeeaaaaad myyyyyyyyy poooooosts
And if you say "not every tank" i already answered that too

And dont say its too much to read, this post have only 3 sites.
+You only have to read what I said about it so its even less.

3 mob pulls not common, I loled, those are like every other pull in Morcianne esp after bee boss. If you want to get complex, wait till you see some of Thendiel's A2S rotations where TP sustain is equally as important as raw potency (hint, 4 Geirskoguls per minute).

[CookieMonsta]

lol. lololol. lol. I cant believe what you just said. lol. Congrats your doing it wrong. There is exactly 1 Wall between the Two-to-Three pulls after bee boss. That mean 1 Single pull yes. 1....1.-. 1._. 1 .... yeah thats totally a whole reason for not using aoe. And even that pull have 4 Enemys. So...makes your whole point just invalid sry.

As if theres no one serious about that.

Umm, the question you still haven't answered, what about TP management? you can't exactly avoid that (hence my A2S parallel, the balance between DPS vs TP). It is inefficient to fail to kill a big pull (due to slowed rotation cuz TP) and it is also inefficient to blow all ur TP in the first pull and have nothing left for the 2nd lot/boss.

I believe you were butthurt about a 200DPS BRD yes? pray tell how you Doomspiked ur way to glory with your infinite TP in less than 1 minute?

[StouterTaru]

Umm, the question you still haven't answered, what about TP management? you can't exactly avoid that (hence my A2S parallel, the balance between DPS vs TP). It is inefficient to fail to kill a big pull (due to slowed rotation cuz TP) and it is also inefficient to blow all ur TP in the first pull and have nothing left for the 2nd lot/boss.

Unlike A2S, you leave combat between pulls, meaning 100TP/3 sec instead of 60TP/3 sec, and you have a substantial amount of time just running from one trash kill location to the next.

When I BLM in expert dungeons, 80 seconds for a trash kill means healer isn't doing damage, tank isn't doing AoE damage, and other dps is doing mediocre ST damage. One person kicking out high AoE damage won't change if they kick out high ST damage instead, bad is bad.

[JackFross]

so done here.
You know what: Do what you want. minimum of 1 minute cant believe it. xD
lmfao. have fun with that.

http://www.fflogs.com/reports/ab9mkFWQYpB1HrJR/#fight=1 - Dragoon
http://www.fflogs.com/reports/g1tNaQKqA2Z4rbDV/#fight=1 - Black Mage

I honestly don't know why I'm entertaining your blatant disregard for the facts and figures I've presented you with that flat out disprove your false hypotheses about properly managing dps. This is a log of a run I did in DF on Dragoon with my healer friend running AST and feeding me cards. The other two were pugs - and the SMN was far better than the average I run into. Pulls were still 1 minute or longer. Most tanks do even less than this Dark Knight did, and the vast majority of DPS partners will do 50% or less than what the Summoner did.


So either you're just a moron who can't tell time, or you're a moron who can't tell time. Either way, this is a pointless discussion to have with someone whose counter-argument to a well-thought-out, in-depth examination of damage dealt and TP spent is:

lol 60-1:20. for a trash pull. lmfao
If thats your usual times to do that, you should already start questioning if you're right with what youre saying.
Im so done here.^^

Thanks for making me feel like I wasted my time trying to educate you on how to play a class I've been playing for over two years with consistently high results.

Class act.


Here's the Black Mage one broken down to just the first pull:
http://www.fflogs.com/reports/g1tNaQ...33&end=7129224

Here's the Dragoon one, same breakdown:
http://www.fflogs.com/reports/ab9mkF...79&end=9477122

So, if you could kindly stop saying you're right and dismissing every single piece of evidence that's raised to prove you wrong, that would be just super.

I'll end with a quote from the post you couldn't be arsed to read:

The only situation when spamming HT>RoT>DSx8 is actually optimal without ever swapping to a single-target rotation is in the case where your partner dps is also shitting out 2000+ aoe DPS, your tank is doing 1500, and your healer is doing 1000. The situations that this will happen outside a premade party are literally Z E R O.

[AlereRaeder]

When doing dungeons and the tank decides that dps gets multiplied with AoE; I go for a ghetto attempt at AoE.

I always start with Chaos Thrust Combo so that I can get 2 geirskoguls during AoE. So it looks something like this:

Heavy thrust Battle litany+BFB > Impulse Drive Internal Release+Power Surge > Disembowel Leg Sweep+Blood of the Dragon > Chaos Thrust Lifesurge > 4th Geirskogul > Ring of Thorns/Doom Spike spam with Jumps > Geirskogul again while Doom Spiking


I assume trash mobs won't live for more than 60 seconds so this rotation I use feels better. No idea if it is better, but i'm against ARR Heavy Thrust Doom Spike spam lol

[Februs]

Snip

I might be missing it, but it seems you've forgotten Ring of Thorns. I'm also definitely against AoE spams because they reduce DoT's and piercing debuffs, but position bonus for RoT is 150. Assuming I score that bonus, I at least try to work it in whenever I re-apply HT. So, I guess my mob rotation would look something like this:

Heavy thrust > BFB > Ring of Thorns > Internal Release > Impulse Drive > Leg Sweep > Disembowel > BotD > Chaos Thrust > Lifesurge > 4th Tier Combo > Geirskogul > Doom Spike > Phlebotomize (in the unlikely event that the primary targets is still alive) > Power Surge > Impulse Drive > Jump > Disembowel > Chaos Thrust > 4th Tier > Doom Spike > Heavy Thrust > Ring of Thorns > etc,

I treat Ring of Thorns and Doom Spike the same way I treat Heavy Thrust and Phlebotomize in my boss rotation. The work in opposite positions. 1st combo = HT+RoT. Second combo (which would normally be the phlebotomize one) = Doom Spike. I typically stagger my oGCD's between GCD's to maximize speed and use Spine Shatter Dive or Dragon Fire Dive to quickly hop between targets. A second Geirskogul is used at 21 seconds of BotD buff, or if the mob is almost dead and I'm going to lose the buff anyway. I don't really know if this is the "right" way to do it, mind you. I don't main Dragoon. I only moonlight as one. It has been working for me so far, though.

[AlereRaeder]

I might be missing it, but it seems you've forgotten Ring of Thorns.

Yeah probably did miss it, hitting positionals do give bonuses lol oops @_@, I guess i'll edit it thanks

The way I see it DRG doesn't have "a set AoE rotation" just toss your AoE move here and there and numbers go up, kinda like ninja that also struggles for a "set AoE rotation".

[JackFross]

Both parses I linked I truncated to when I started attacking. Sometimes I'll proc a Heavy Thrust on the run for the first pull since I have a 1500 tp pool ahead of me. I generally end up using Invig once during each set of trash between bosses and once on each boss fight, which isn't very frequent.

I don't attack mobs mid-pull when I'm not sitting on an Invigorate. If you look at the logs there, you'll see my first aoe attack shortly after the pull began in each instance. I stretched it until a few seconds after the last mob died (not counting the morbol that spawns at the end).

The logs I linked are representative of a normal df roulette. If I queue as Dark Knight, which I'll do today to humor you, I generally come out as the top damage dealer in aoe *and* on the boss fights. Examining gear and class only goes so far. I've run with 210 summoners who can't break 1000 in aoe pulls.

I don't believe anywhere did I ever deny that Dragoon has good aoe. All I said is that using doom spike spam on a 3 target pull and burning out in 30s is not the best way to play it. I proved that with data that shows a rotation that does better damage than straight doom spike spam in all situations while lasting for the normal duration of a dungeon trash pull with randoms.

One person doing high dps isn't going to carry a party to 30s kills. Two people doing that isn't going to lead to that. You need the whole party optimizing for 30s kills. Both runs I linked were 20m or less with 1 minute trash pulls, so your statistic of pulling it off with your dragoon friend doesn't really mean much? I don't know what to tell you. The second you hit 0 tp and need to wait on ticks to hit gcds, you're doing less dps than the rotation I suggested a page ago.

[JackFross]

Are u really sure it work that way? No offense Because thats very unlikely for parsing

I'm positive. I didn't break it down by the attack the first time, so I'll give more accurate ones this time.
This one is my BLM one - the first spell I cast in the entire encounter is Fire III, right at the start of this chunk. The very end of the chunk is when the last of the mobs in the first pull died (not including the Malboro Terra that spawns near the end).
http://www.fflogs.com/reports/g1tNaQ...26&end=7130570

This one is my DRG one - the first skill I used when everything was gathered was Dragonfire Dive, at about 0:29, with a Heavy Thrust proc'd earlier during the run-up. That's when my AoE starts. I cut it off at the same time as above, just when the pack died.
http://www.fflogs.com/reports/ab9mkF...01&end=9477835

Both of these encounters are ~1:10 in duration. If I spammed Doom Spike, I'd have hit 0 TP at 0:30-ish and been working with TP ticks for the remainder. I would have done nowhere near the 138,800 damage that I did, which does include opening with 7 shots of Doom Spike into the pack, which you can see via this link here.

Important note: If you look at this link, you can also see that those 7 Doom Spikes only counted for 63k out of the 138k that I did in total - less than half. If you divide, each Doom Spike is approximately 9k damage. If I just kept going until TP zero, I probably could have squeezed in another 5-6, and that's being generous, before hitting 0 TP. That would only have been an additional 45k to 54k, which would put me at 108k - 117k from Doom Spike, and running off TP ticks for the remainder. I'd lose my 13.2k from Geirskogul, all of the damage from the single-targets... It's highly unlikely I would have beaten 138k with 0 TP dragging my feet.

But thats really just a Rescue and shouldn't be common. Most of the Groups at Expert and 60 are at least "pretty okay" so that ain't gonna happen much.

In my experience, if I'm not tag-team-dps with my friend, it happens in quite literally every pull. When I play Dark Knight, I very often (read: almost always) need to hit a second Blood Price in every large pull. That's a 40s cooldown that I use as soon as I'm settled with the mobs (aka when I start to dps), and 40s is already longer than your TP will last, spamming Doom Spike. I'd say it's very frequent, because I have never encountered a situation where a large trash pull dies before my TP drains outside of times I enter with a full premade party. WHM holy bombs after the DRK does stupid AoE with BP up and a SMN dropping 2.4-3k on the mobs. In those cases, I don't even need Invigorate before everything is dead. But that's not standard, and shouldn't be treated like standard, imo. If you're gonna discuss Dragoon AoE in duty finder dungeons, you need to discuss the most common case - everything is still alive after you've fallen to the danger zone post-invigorate.

I nearly never see a Dragon using AoE efficient. For example today i got a french DRG, which only single targeted everything, not using Geirskogul either, not using Blood for Blood, not using the Monk buff. But we still had a fast run because Tank, Healer and me did a great Job. Which brings me back to the point of all points: Its all really just a matter of awareness and handling the situation the best you can.

And I absolutely agree with all of that. Dragoons don't like to AoE for some reason. A few on the page before were discussing weaving Doom Spike in as part of a generally single-target rotation, which isn't doing anyone any favors. I tried to make my post as informative as I could regarding how best to maximize aoe. I showed off all of the basic AoE rotations that exist (though I did forget one...) and weighed the pros and cons against each other to help people make informed decisions.

Stuff you were saying made it seem like you were essentially saying "If you're not using Doom Spike, or you're using Single-target with gsk in aoe pulls, you're just dumb and wrong!" which made me knee-jerk call you stupid and argue against you. I'll fight tooth and nail that in a 3-target encounter, you're way better off doing single-target with BotD and saving your big cooldowns for a bigger pull coming up next.

Places where this happens due to how tanks generally pull:
Fractal Continuum, after the first boss. People tend to pull the one group of 3, then the bigger group, then the last group of 3 in 3 separate pulls, with the last group spawning a Chimera. You wanna do the Doom Spike stuff on the second group, not the first or third, so it's in everyone's best interest to hold Invigorate for that pull, rather than "wasting it" on one of the smaller ones.

Arboretum - after the second boss. There's one huuuuge pull where you definitely want to burn everything. After that is 3 trees before the boss. You shouldn't be Doom Spiking those trees. You should absolutely be single-target with BotD (maybe) and nothing else there, to hold buffs for the boss that's coming up. I'll usually mix in a RoT and 1-2 DS, but burning TP low before a boss is generally not advisable.

& btw I dont just main DRG. I play DRG, DRK, WHM and SMN but most experienced at DRG.

I personally play DRG, DRK, SCH, BLM, and WHM, in that order of preference/experience. I do pretty good damage on any of them, but my damage alone has never and will never be able to carry an encounter to a fast enough kill that you should realistically be telling people that spamming Doom Spike is optimal, when I assure you, it's not often the best way to go. I just find it incredibly rude to reply to someone's opinion with "LOLOLOLOLOLOL READ BETTER IDIOT" - especially when they're correct in their assertions. Those comments gave me a really bad impression while browsing the first couple pages of the thread. :|


***For those curious, the one I forgot to check/mention was:
H>RoT>IDC4>IDC4>repeat
with 3 gsk/minute

A minute is generally crossed during the third rotation, so you're essentially trading 1 gsk (200 pot) for 3 shots of RoT (3x150 pot = 450 pot) - it's definitely a gain, at the cost of a bit more TP.

[Hakmatic]

Doomspikes hit range is fine, you keep saying that sucks but it's fine, you just target the mob furthest from you and make sure the group is between you and that mob. Also this thread is cancer get out while you can people.