Minfillia Speculation

[Belhi]

Sacrifice is never beautiful but sometimes necessary. I'm not arguing that Hydaelyn is some perfect good and honestly I suspect the conflict between Hydaelyn and Zodiark might end up being more of an Us vs Them situation rather than their being some universal good and evil. I will say that from a morality point of view Hydaelyn will probably be the one we are more likely to sympathise with.

I use Nidhogg as an example. Nidhogg is almost certainly very justified in his hatred of Ishgard and humans in general. After first the Allag and then the who Ratatoskr affair his anger is perfectly understandable. However from a moral standpoint you cant stand with Nidhogg because what he wants to do demands a lot of people getting ground to dust. Likewise, the city states are hardly saints but we said with them against Garlemald because Garlemald is the aggressor.

In the Hydaelyn vs Zodiark situation everything points to Zodiark being the aggressor and his minions basically acting without any care to the collateral damage they do. We defend the people of Eorzea as much as we defend Hydaelyn.

As for my comments on Hydaelyn and the lifestream, I go off what we have in game and out of game. Everything we have been feed points at Hydaelyn being not only the source of Aether (All made one) but a benevolent force. More over I again point to the fact that the whole point of the Ascians spreading primal summoning is to drain Hydaelyn of Aether. As Hydaelyn weakens the Aetheric levels around Eorzea have dropped.

I'd also point out that Hydaelyn's nature could very easily be normal in the universe of FF14 (apart from the whole dividing of the Sea into 14 thing). I think Hydaelyn's existence is probably due to that change in the universe. The rules on godhood aren't really clear in FF14 yet. Hell, even the rule on primals aren't. Just cause primals aren't true gods doesn't mean true gods cant exist.

Really we are heavily operating on speculation here. Whatever has happened to Minfilia and her future role could be vastly less drastic than we are assuming. For all we know she has merely become a voice piece for Hydaelyn so she can interact with the world more easily and at less cost to her strength.

[Cilia]

Hydaelyn is supposed to be the physical form of source of Aether, and therefore lifeforce, for the world. That's why as she gets weaker Aetheric levels start to drop one would assume.

...

The other thing we should consider is Minfilia's current situation might not be permanent. This might be a stop gap measure. We just have far too little info to go on at the moment. I wouldn't leap to the conclusion that this is evidence of Hydaelyn going bad.

The chess motif isn't quite proper here. Hydaelyn is not the king piece; she is the board itself, and the Ascians' apparent goal is to win by destroying it through attrition. It is war, and that sometimes means having to take drastic, unprecedented actions - but can we really say our side is better if our goddess is going to ask for sacrifices, temporary, necessary, or otherwise? Should we reject making sacrifices and throw away the sacrifices of others in the name of pride and idealism?

No, on both accounts. If we're going to offer up people as sacrifices, we're only trading blood for time. However, when you speak of "throwing away the sacrifices of others for pride and idealism" do not forget the sunk cost fallacy - that is, that ceasing hostilities causes sacrifices (etc.) to devalue. This is a big argument for fighting to the last man, but it's also a major fallacy - throwing your life away because others did so is not good or wise and does nobody any good.

Are we bad people because others sacrificed themselves for us? Well, no. Those decisions are out of our hands, but we should never be complicit in others planning to do so and should make every effort to make such sacrifices unnecessary. Which we do, though situations sometimes are out of our control and things end up happening we'd rather not have happened. We can't change what happened, but we can change what will happen... and we should try to make a world where nobody has to sacrifice themselves just to preserve the status quo, much less make things better.

As for Hydaelyn "going bad?" You're still looking at it in terms of absolute, human morality. Hydaelyn isn't "going bad" or "turning out to be bad," but taking actions that seem morally questionable from our perspective. As a goddess, she has a very different point of view than we do. Sacrificing Minfilia is likely a trifle to her - what is one life? - but is incredibly painful to us because, whatever else she may or may not be, Minfilia is our dear friend and we don't want to lose her. We... we already lost her once. Getting her back should be a happy event, but if she's possessed by Hydaelyn, it's not really her and we should take issue with that especially if it was at Hydaelyn's behest. We aren't tools, or chess pieces, in Hydaelyn's game against Zodiark, to be used and sacrificed for the "greater good" when she feels it's necessary. We have feelings and aspirations and goals and other things going on besides... it's unfair to just ask us to drop it all and sacrifice ourselves, which aside from cutting our lives short (or at least miserable) makes everyone who cares for us suffer as well.

Is this a selfish point of view, a selfish wish, an immature way of thinking? Absolutely. ... but being selfish isn't necessarily wrong. It's just being selfish, and there's nothing wrong with wanting something for yourself or having aspirations besides servitude. Our thoughts should not be "what is my next move to stop the Ascians?", but "what will I do when it's all over?"

Hydaelyn isn't "going bad." She just operates on a value system different from ours, and it may clash with our own. Whatever happens then, if anything, is anyone's guess.

... and I acknowledge this is but conjecture based on a piece of artwork, a model, and a screenshot, but I'm not sure what else to make of it. Regardless, I think I'll stop my rambling again.

[Nalien]

Hydaelyn, on the other hand, comes bundled with an entire code of conduct that happens to include the suppression of false gods to ensure her continued existence. That's religion, not existence itself.

That's the Scions code of conduct, not Hydaelyns... Granted, the Scions believe they're working for Hydaelyns will, but in reality they've been bumbling around in the dark since their inception. The Scions believe that Primal summoning is harmful to Hydaelyn, but there has never been a decree from the heavens telling us to go out and put Primals down. That's on us, and I wouldn't be surprised, given that Elidibus and his Warriors of Darkness are now doing the same thing, if Minfilia comes back and tells us we've been doing it wrong. Given what we've seen with Leviathan and Thordan, Primals seem like a literal deus ex machina for dealing with the Ascian threat... I really can't help but wonder if there is something more there... Are the current Primals bad? Sure, but who has been summoning them, or better yet, who taught those people how to summon them?

If I was an Ascian, and I knew Primals could stop me, I'd set the board up so that people forget what Primals are for and fight them for me. I'd set it up so everyone loses their way and fights each other, rather than working together against a common threat. Likewise, if absolutely nothing happens to the Ascians from here on out, and in a thousand years they're still kicking about, as an Ascian I'd probably make sure people don't ever find White Auracite again, I'd spread the myth that it gives Super-Cancer or something, to ensure people never mine it to trap Ascians again...

[CyrilLucifer]

If I was an Ascian, and I knew Primals could stop me, I'd set the board up so that people forget what Primals are for and fight them for me. I'd set it up so everyone loses their way and fights each other, rather than working together against a common threat.

Related to this - how did Thordan know that Ascians were aether balls and could be eliminated by being absorbed by a primal just assuming dear Laha is gone for good for ease of discussion in the first place? He specifically mentions "aether, no matter the source," implying he knows. It took the Scions until studying Lahabrea's Dark Crystal to figure their mechanisms out, I don't think the Ascians would just be willing to share that info with anyone.

And our meeting with Thordan mid-HW wasn't really long enough to discuss such things.

[Nalien]

And our meeting with Thordan mid-HW wasn't really long enough to discuss such things.

He "copied" us.

We took out Igeyorhm, then Thordan walks in, having witnessed this, and blasts Lahabrea.

[CyrilLucifer]

He "copied" us.

We took out Igeyorhm, then Thordan walks in, having witnessed this, and blasts Lahabrea.

That seems like a fast conclusion to jump to, then. "Oh, the Warrior of Light, is capable of killing an Ascian using some wierd white gem thing the energy Nidhogg's eye. They must be aether balls!"

It seems like it's a huge leap of logic.

That being said, I think with a primal large and powerful enough, it could probably absorb your internal aether and kill you through touch or sustained close proximity, no matter if you have a physical form or not, like what BisEx does when you're on his back. I think it's less Thordan being brilliant and more being absurdly overconfident in his abilities.

So I suppose I'm answering my own question here. Apologies for the derail, feel free to go back to your scheduled Hydaelyn-role argument.

[Nalien]

He simply knew we could undo an Ascian with "mortal contrivances", as he put it. We blasted Igeyorhm with the Eye, then he forged a sword from the other Eye and did the same thing to Lahabrea.

Technically he did something entirely different; We trapped Igeyorhm and blasted her, utterly undoing her. He blasted Lahabrea, then absorbed him in his weakened state. He was already aware Primal fed off aether, as I imagine most are at this point, he simply drew the conclusion that it didn't matter what form that aether took, which... Well, it was a conclusion I'd been shouting at my screen since 2.2... That the Scions still haven't realized this (despite us watching Thordan do it...) places them firmly on the Bravely Default level of main character "intelligence"... At least Y'mhitra pretty much realized it, shame she hasn't shared that with her sister... You'd think at this point we'd be going "Hey, Ysayle was pretty bad ass... If we could do that we could summon a Primal to OHKO Ascians or make the Garleans piss their pants and run, then dismiss it to safely return aether to Hydaelyn with no lengthy battle...", but no... Still haven't coined that, have we... Please let Minfilia slap some sense into the Scions now...

[CyrilLucifer]

I always wondered, does that 100% mean Lahabrea died or did his aether got free again after Thordans death?

Short answer, after months of debating on the subject: No one knows.

He's totally coming back though.

[Nalien]

I always wondered, does that 100% mean Lahabrea died or did his aether got free again after Thordans death?

It specifically got shown being absorbed by the Eye in the Ascalon... My theory is that, following Nidhoggs "revival", Lahabrea is an angry eye floater who, as he did with Ysayle and Thordan, will teach Nidhogg how to summon a Primal unto himself. Nidhogg + Bahamut = Shinryu = Omega reactivates. Epicness follows.

[CyrilLucifer]

lol thats so true xD Classic FF plot twist

We just have to have faith, right? If we believe hard enough, we can summon grumpy primal Lahabrea back!

I want to believe. I'll believe as hard as Greg did for Enkidu.