The Illusion of Choice

[Reynhart]

He claims that they can't add different modes to each jobs because people would only ever play the strongest one and they'd have to design content around it, but how is that any different to the existing situation with regards to the different jobs in each role?

And how is that different to the existing situation with regards to ilvl discrepancies ?

[AnaviAnael]

I would love to see actual CC have a use in this game. CC job and pure support are my two favorite jobs to play..this game has neither atm.

I would kill for a pure support class!

[SendohJin]

I strongly disagree with this statement. I am not sure how to argue it though. My only argument is that they don't do the same thing, with the only similarity that they do damage. In which case, a SMN also does the same thing as a WAR. Unless you mean they both use magic? In which case a NIN and a PLD are also identical, in that they both use physical damage. If you care to elaborate more on your point, that may be good, because perhaps I am missing something.

they're both DPS that doesn't have to stand next to a mob to hit. and both ranged DPS that doesn't have to worry about being in front or behind a mob to get high accuracy.

I completely agree, but removing an entire job to make a spec is not adding customization or variety, it is removing it.

As someone who hates BLM with an unknown passion, and finds every job outside of SMN, SCH and WHM to be utterly boring, if they made that change - I wouldn't be here.

that wasn't the point. they didn't have to add Arcanist for 2.0, they could've added a Thunder Spec to BLM and a Shield spec to WHM,

they didn't have to add NIN, they could've added Mudras as a MNK spec that replaced GL. added Ammo to BRDs that replaced songs. added cards to WHM, added Dark Arts to PLD.

[SendohJin]

Why can't OP's proposition meet this standard if you guys are ok with it in the jobs department?

because they've already started homogenizing jobs for the purpose of balance.

Saying "it's for balance" as an excuse, also means you don't want jobs.

new jobs are cosmetic. skill trees are not.

[Kaurie]

@SendohJin

I guess I view things differently than yourself. There are a lot more different things between jobs than cosmeitc. For example, a SMN mechanically has to manage a pet. Further, a SMN is much stronger at AoE and a BLM is much stronger single target. They play very differently mechanically and excel in different things.

[Zeonx]

I'd like to offer what I think makes a good analogy. Say you went to the grocery store and saw several blocks of cheese. One cheese is clearly cheaper per gram than the rest, and it is the obvious choice. There is an illusion of choice, because clearly the cheapest is the best.

Neither, I just wait for something better to come along.

[Noelzzz]

Actually while WoW has 3 specs per class, they removed almost all the customization per spec. The term "Illusion of Choice" COMES from blizzard for crying out loud. Also the only thing you customize on the relic weapon in WoW is the order in which you get the traits. In the end you will have all the traits.

I'm pretty sure there is skill and trait tree, at lest it was till december (last time i played it). But yeah, even a simple multi jobs per class would be something cool and for extra jobs more roles per job

[Purrfectstorm]

I like the idea of more customization. Games become deeper games the more theory crafting is possible. Theory crafting is a lot of fun for some players precisely because there is a best build (or a presumably best build). So I can get behind some of what the OP is saying - like it's okay for choice to exist even if one choice is best. Games have to shake things up to keep the theory crafting coming though. So one patch one set up might be best but every patch they have to figure it out again. For example, let's say a WAR wants enough skspd for a 9-hit Berserk, then the next patch comes out. Can they stack enough skspd for a 10-hit Berserk without sacrificing too much in other stats? These are the kinds of things that are fun to figure out. FFXIV does have some of that but really not enough.

I don't agree that people should play suboptimally just because of concept or whatever though. There is suboptimal in the sense that the average player cannot be expected to optimize (or know enough to optimize) to a certain level (e.g. advanced knowledge of stat weights, how the game calculates damage, or whatever). Then there is suboptimal in the sense that you're using your abilities in a clearly suboptimal way (e.g. ice mages). SE should have just made an ice rotation that is only slightly worse than a fire rotation, made the fact that it was worse non-obvious (i.e. you'd need a parser to detect it), and then given us a parser

Games are better when players have stuff to figure out. We have fight mechanics and that's something. Until a few groups clear and then everyone copies them. But, again, it is not enough for real depth.

Lastly, FFXIV has a system in place that allows for tremendous creativity with customization options: the materia system. But they've chosen to use it in the most boring way possible. What they should do is add in FFVII type materia (OMG Final Attack - Phoenix would be so sweet). We could have materia that gives us abilities from other jobs, enhances our own abilities (e.g. reduced Rampart CD, increased Riot Blade damage, using Foresight heals you for 5%, etc.), and we can have materia that provides other neat bonuses: increased movement speed, item drop rates, a currency earned, etc.

It is not hard to balance most of these bonuses. Giving an ability with a 90 second cooldown a small bonus heal, for example. SE just doesn't want to do it. The easy way has been working for them so far.

[Shurrikhan]

Illusion of choice is real...Yoshi acknowledges it, WOW has acknowledged it, everyone with half a brain has. Get on our level plx.

It's funny that people reference WoW so often in this regard when at the time of the shift to streamlined talents (which, in Blizzard's words, was as much to move the uninteresting talents that were essentially bonuses for having spent x points in a given spec from actual talent choices to automatic gains based on, again, spending x points in a given spec and to decrease balancing costs as it was about the "illusion of choice") had at least a few specs per class, role, and setting that performed within 3% of each other, and forum-scorned "non-optimal" specs frequently outperforming the FotM specs.

If you want true illusion of choice, look no further than what followed that excuse: Mist talents. One dummy-style AoE, one burst ST, one gradual self-buff. In rare cases, a whole of two of these might be worth considering for the combat setting. Change to gameplay: bring a full-stack of talent-switching items to every raid, swap every fight. "Illusion" of choice gone.

Illusion of choice is not a universal law; it is a flaw in design, most often where differently weighted metas collide without providing built-in variance to make each choice valuable in a variety of settings (e.g. stun talents on unstunnable bosses, without a triggered damage bonus on resist).

[Ibi]

It's funny that people reference WoW so often in this regard when at the time of the shift to streamlined talents [...] had at least a few specs per class, role, and setting that performed within 3% of each other, and forum-scorned "non-optimal" specs frequently outperforming the FotM specs.

If you want true illusion of choice, look no further than what followed that excuse: Mist talents. One dummy-style AoE, one burst ST, one gradual self-buff. [...] "Illusion" of choice gone.

Illusion of choice does not mean "Choice where one outcome is generally superior". It doesn't even mean "Choice where one outcome is optimal".

To illustrate, let's look a assigning talent points for a feral cat druid in Wrath (since it was my main at the time), using this Wrath talent calculator.

When you first open it up, you have 7 talents to which you can assign points. You do technically have a choice to assign those points anywhere. But once you start actually looking at the talent descriptions, it's clear (if you're at all familiar with druid) that some of these are non-starters. In fact, I was able to assign 68 of the 71 (95.8%) points without having to make any actual decisions beyond:

1. Do I have a talent available that will increase my DPS?
2. If not, and there are talents on the next tier that will increase my DPS, what's the best available choice that will give me enough points to make that tier available?

I could make a choice to remove some of those points I've assigned and put them in, say, Starlight Wrath, but since feral cat druid doesn't ever cast Wrath or Starfire, there's no reason to ever do so.

This choice is effectively an illusion. I have an option available to me, but there's never any rational reason that I'd take it.

Now, let's take a look at the Warlords talents (because I can't find a working Mists one online and the principle behind it is the same as the Mists one). In fact, let's focus on the level 60 tier, because it's actually DPS-related talents and lets me illustrate the point.

There are three options available:

• Soul of the Forest: Provides a completely passive damage boost, by giving me some energy whenever I used a finisher.
• Incarnation: King of the Jungle: Provides a cooldown that, once activated, changes the way some of my abilities work, which changes what I'd actually be doing for its duration.
• Force of Nature: Provides a cooldown that, once activated, requires no further action from me.

All three increase my overall DPS, and if you go look at something like Icy Veins feral druid guide, it'll tell you that Incarnation is the best talent choice, and that, in terms of increasing your DPS, the other two cannot compete with it.

That does not mean that this is choice is an illusion.

Incarnation requires more of the player than Force of Nature, and both require more of the player than the entirely passive Soul of the Forest. There are pros and cons to each option.

Now, if someone is a mythic raider, their skill level is high enough that the pros of Incarnation vastly outweigh the cons, so it's a pretty easy decision for them.

But for the average player, who may find their performance takes a hit when they have to manage both their rotation and the mechanics of a fight? Maybe they'll opt to take one of the other two talents, so that they can focus more, or entirely, on the fight mechanics.

That's a completely legitimate option that many players would likely choose to take.