The Illusion of Choice

[WellFooled]

Of which about a third were unplayable, broken, or clearly inferior to another choice within the same class. Take Discipline Priests. Those became playable as an actual healer in WotLK, the second expansion. Before that, they were the tree you could take some talents from for PVP, and almost no one fully specced Discipline.

Imbalance happens no matter what system an MMO uses. Even FFXIV, who has less to balance out of any MMO I've ever seen, can't get balance right (but we Paladins live in hope for the 3.2 changes). So since imbalance will always be there, wouldn't you prefer it come with fun choices?

But I see what you're saying, the more layers that get added the more chances there are for something to go massively out of whack like your examples from WoW, but adding choices to FFXIV wouldn't need to be as complex as what WoW uses. It could be something as simple as gear with some unique effect to it.

Imagine end game as a choice of three weapons and for one melee dps it could look like this: One weapon gives you 10% more movement speed constantly, one makes your sprint not cost any TP but increases its cool down, one has a built in cooldown ability that teleports you to the location of your selected target.

That's just one choice (Which weapon do I use?) and yet that one choice could greatly change how you go about playing your job. Imagine if there was just one or two gear slots in every patch that had a choice like this. It wouldn't change things much, but it would be miles ahead of what we have now. And if they're not balanced? The gear will be replaced in the standard patch cycle that increases the ilvl. At best that imbalance would be around for a couple patches or the Devs could change things earlier if they choose.

[Reynhart]

Illusion of choice is real...Yoshi acknowledges it, WOW has acknowledged it, everyone with half a brain has. Get on our level plx.

Good parrotting.

Let's ignore games like The Secret World or Dungeons and Dragons Online, where customization works.
Let's also ignore other multiplayer games like Diablo 2 and 3 or Titan Quest who have a lot of different builds that can clear everything...

And let's all pretend that optimization is really what matters to the whole community when it has been proven that less than 10% of players have actually cleared Alex Savage.

Seriously, after creating Gold Saucer and Lords Of Verminion, they could really take the time to develop skill trees without worrying about all the elite players (Not as "elitist", real "elite" that have all the right to look for optimization) that will only focus on the best path.
The good thing is that, since players can use every job, they could decide to go for the optimal path on their "raid" job and be a little more creative for their others.

And let's stop overdramatizing skill trees as if one path is the absolute best while all the others only perform at 10% of the job capacity...

[Darkstride]

Let's ignore games like The Secret World or Dungeons and Dragons Online, where customization works.
Let's also ignore other multiplayer games like Diablo 2 and 3 or Titan Quest who have a lot of different builds that can clear everything...

And let's all pretend that optimization is really what matters to the whole community when it has been proven that less than 10% of players have actually cleared Alex Savage.

And let's stop overdramatizing skill trees as if one path is the absolute best while all the others only perform at 10% of the job capacity...

Agreed. Final Fantasy just isn't built to incorporate diversity. That doesn't mean it can't be done. The Secret World was designed to allow nearly any combination of weapons, abilities and traits to be successful in a multitude of roles.....and it works quite well.The game expects you to have multiple builds, gear and stat allocations for various scenarios such as solo, dungeons, raids, PVP, etc. Stas are 100% customizable and under your control. There is no "one build" that trumps all of the rest. Ate there balance issues? Occasionally, but they devs for The Secret World are extremely attentive to the community and make necessary adjustments if and when it is needed.

Diversity, customization and specialization can all be incorporated successfully, but the game design needs to allo it and promote it. That's just now how FFXIV works. It is build to be homogenized and overbalanced. It's not necessarily bad, it's just different. We would need it to be "reborn" again and have the whole system restructured for it to allow any real choice.

[Noelzzz]

Illusion of choice is real...Yoshi acknowledges it, WOW has acknowledged it, everyone with half a brain has. Get on our level plx.

This is one of the biggest bullshit i have ever seen. And this guy is the reason why capable players and people who can actually improve this game nowadays stay away from the OF.

You say WoW has acknowledged it? World of Warcraft? the same game that has 3 or more SPECS per class with a skill and trait tree? They even making their own version of relic weapons with a
dedicated trait system! Every big patch or expansion they kinda rework classes and specs to keep the game fresh.

Let me tell you something else mister: people like you are destroying the game

[SendohJin]

Some people enjoy illusion. Once again, Are you against new jobs? Because best in position will be found out anyway right? What's the point of new jobs if the beat jobs are the only ones people want.

i'm against new jobs if they keep putting out stuff like Wanderer's Minuet and Gauss Barrel which makes BRD/MCH super similar, Nocturnal/Diurnal Sect which puts AST in WHM or SCH mode.

the point of new jobs is to have vastly different play styles. SMN and BLM do the same thing but they don't get there the same way, SCH/WHM, PLD/WAR/DRK, MNK/NIN/DRG.

i'm for new jobs for purely cosmetic reasons, it's good to have a gun wielding job, i want to see a Great Katana wielding job as well as Red Mage with White and Black magic in their rotation.

if they never made SMN and instead the Aetherflow mechanic with *Bane and Fester" was part of the Black Mage Thunder build, that would be a disservice to the community.

if there's a way to make a job play differently via a new build, they should go all the way and create a new job out of it with it's own set of gear, lore, storyline and NPCs.

to me that's what FFXIV is.

[Defias]

I think part of the issue is that in truth...Jobs in the FF franchise have always kind of been pardon the french..."1 Trick Ponies".

Each job does 1 thing the others don't and that makes them unique. Talents that morph/alter the jobs would essentially turn them into another Job period.

I always perceived the "Job Stone/Crystal" as the "Path/Tree" in this game.
It is boring to some extent as basically the devs/game basically dictates our growth.
But honestly...what imbalance there is amongst Jobs in this game is very low by MMO standards. It's honestly impressive.

We don't get flavor of the month Jobs/Classes like most other MMORPGs as a result. With how patch cycles tend to go...it'd be "Flavor of the Season/Quarter" here.

I understand you OP. As I said earlier I would not mind if they ripped ESO's skillpoint system and pasted it into this game.
That system when done right can turn your character into an Army of One.
To be able to solo any and all content like my Templar does in ESO would vastly improve my enjoyment of this game.

Honestly...I feel what little choice we get now is best.
Without specs we have very Job serving their purpose, no Hybrids, no Tanks that are actually DPS, no Healers who are only good at DPS, no dps who are now Tanks.

I know folks disagree but all specs would do is give people an excuse not to fulfil heir Job's role.
Let's be honest...
How many Dark Knights and Warriors would actually specialize to be Tanks?
(Take into account how many players want DRK to be DPS, and the obession WARs have with Fel Cleave.)
How many Bards do you think would specialize in Support/Songs versus pure ranged DPS?
How many White Mages do you see specializing to Heal? (Take into account the current meta/trend of Healer DPS and how focal/required it has become & the obsession with DPS many now have.)
How many Summoners do you think would specialize in Egi Summoning versus say...Trance?
(Thus being a BLM with shorter cast times...)

Even if it's just in gear and the secondary stats they provide. The game is decently balanced. We should all be grateful for that.
Most complaints are over QoL if anything. That's honestly a good place.

[Hix]

This is one of the biggest bullshit i have ever seen. And this guy is the reason why capable players and people who can actually improve this game nowadays stay away from the OF.

You say WoW has acknowledged it? World of Warcraft? the same game that has 3 or more SPECS per class with a skill and trait tree? They even making their own version of relic weapons with a
dedicated trait system! Every big patch or expansion they kinda rework classes and specs to keep the game fresh.

Let me tell you something else mister: people like you are destroying the game

Actually while WoW has 3 specs per class, they removed almost all the customization per spec. The term "Illusion of Choice" COMES from blizzard for crying out loud. Also the only thing you customize on the relic weapon in WoW is the order in which you get the traits. In the end you will have all the traits.

[Critical-Limit]

i'm against new jobs if they keep putting out stuff like Wanderer's Minuet and Gauss Barrel which makes BRD/MCH super similar, Nocturnal/Diurnal Sect which puts AST in WHM or SCH mode.

the point of new jobs is to have vastly different play styles. SMN and BLM do the same thing but they don't get there the same way, SCH/WHM, PLD/WAR/DRK, MNK/NIN/DRG.
.

We're in agreement. I'm just showing the hypocrisy of wanting new jobs, but not wanting "choice" anywhere else

[KaitlanKela]

If Jobs are the Builds for this game, it's sad that they've said no to more arcanist-like class-job trees.

As an arcanist, I have a healing "build" and a dps "build". It could work easily for other jobs if they'd only implement it: Archer has a support build as Bard and dps build as Ranger. Pugilist has a dps build as Monk and a tank build as Dancer. Conjurer has a magic build as White Mage and a physical build as Chemist. Just some ideas.

But yeah, they've said they won't do that. I see the flaws in the system (too many people getting lvl 60 playing only one job and then switching to the other in endgame all like watdoido?) and I respect Yoshi's choice, but there was a lot of potential lost there.

[WellFooled]

Each job does 1 thing the others don't and that makes them unique. Talents that morph/alter the jobs would essentially turn them into another Job period.

if they never made SMN and instead the Aetherflow mechanic with *Bane and Fester" was part of the Black Mage Thunder build, that would be a disservice to the community.

if there's a way to make a job play differently via a new build, they should go all the way and create a new job out of it with it's own set of gear, lore, storyline and NPCs.

You guys make good points against specific ways of customization (I too think it would probably be overboard to allow dark Knights to spec as a dps for example), but not customization in general. There are many ways to give us choices in gameplay without making the jobs carbon copies of one another or by fundamentally changing what each job is about.