Dear Dragoons. Your AoE is actually good.

[alimdia]

I always appreciate a drg that does aoe.
The difference between the dps of drg aoe and single targets is big especially for big pulls

[whiskeybravo]

I always appreciate a drg that does aoe.
The difference between the dps of drg aoe and single targets is big especially for big pulls

Big pulls.. doomspiking 3 enemies is not a big pull, which is what the OP is suggesting.

Just want to clear that up.

[Lilith_Merquise]

More then 3, yes please use your AoE. 3 Or less stick to single targets. While DRG and many of the other classes don't have "Bad" AoE's they ain't no SMN/BLM. So if you can burn faster with a single target (especially when it can allow you to use Geikerskogual) then that is the better way to go. What I can't stand is the DRG/MNK that AoE on anything that is more then 1 mob.

[Darwyn_Ulondarr]

For two to three target pulls I'm surprised multidotting hasn't been mentioned. IIRC, Chaos Thrust (alone) is 600 potency if it's allowed to run it's full course. Phleb is about 410.

[Morzy]

Thats the roblem though. You cant spam this on back to back pulls. I literally just ran expert with my monk and i didnt mind the tank rushing i could keep my stacks up it was great only i ran out of tp cus there was justno time between pulls and i was aoeing all over the place.

Hes also probably right that drg doesnt scale as well at 60 which might be why ST damage isnt far behind aoe.

Honestly as far as melee aoe monk got elixir field which is a lot of free damage every 30 seconds. Drg didnt get so blessed with aoe but you got crit buff that everyone loves and you do more ST damage than monk so id say you guys are pretty awesome.

[Houston009]

He's also probably right that drg doesnt scale as well at 60 which might be why ST damage isnt far behind aoe.

Honestly as far as melee aoe monk got elixir field which is a lot of free damage every 30 seconds. Drg didnt get so blessed with aoe but you got crit buff that everyone loves and you do more ST damage than monk so id say you guys are pretty awesome.

Monk does more ST and AoE damaga than DRG. In dungeons, MNK is arguably the best melee to bring since in a 4man dungeon they usually offer more overall damage than its competitor melee. DRG requiring a BRD/MCH to contribute greater single target Raid dps. Whilst ninja's trick losing effectiveness due to only 4 players present;they also have lackluster aoe, but have Goad I guess.

[CookieMonsta]

There does exist a rotation based on Geirskogul developed by JackFross, where you drop drop Phleb and go for 4 Geirskoguls per minute. Extremely effective vs 3 targets (the most common mob size) and extremely TP efficent. Not quite as effective on 2 targets but the TP efficiency remains. Can also be used on 3+ targets to conserve TP even though Doomspike spam is more effective.

[JackFross]

Okay, getting a bit strained reading these posts. Here's some math for you.

When you do AoE, you have 4 different options which are all realistically viable.

1 - HT > RoT > Repeat
2 - HT > RoT x9 > Repeat
3 - HT > RoT > DS x8 > Repeat
4 - HT > IDC4 > IDC4 > repeat with 4 gsk / minute

These are all under circumstances of infinite TP.

Under the cut: An in-depth examination of the various AoE rotations you can use in trash encounters, including TP expense and damage output.

I'll examine the TP drain of each rotation and therefore its sustainability before going into the ppgcd of each. I'll be scaling the weakest one up by a marginal amount (only the first HT is not buffed) and assuming that you're magic and can hit the Flank with every HT, which, let's be honest, is almost never the case in a trash pull. I'll also be truncating the decimals because it'll look cleaner.

I'm gonna first do TP expenditure, then calculate potency per gcd of each rotation. Beside each set of ppgcd, I'll put in the total amount of potency you can pull off, pretending like ppgcd x gcds active = potency dealt before TP 0. This will NOT be completely accurate, of course, but will give a general idea of how each rotation really stacks up against one another.


Caveats: I am treating TP like a continuum - it drains at a constant rate and refreshes at a constant rate. This is *NOT* an accurate representation of how TP works. Reasoning out the exact discrete numbers becomes a bit too difficult and honestly not worth the time it would take. This gives a general idea of the relationship between TP-Zero points among the different rotations. Do note that, therefore, the amount of gcds that can be executed before TP-Zero will be skewed upwards, since you will use a 160 TP skill and hit 0 long before this continuum says you would. The skew would be greater, the higher the TP of the skills in the rotation.

Note that 26 gcds is 1 minute of sustained DPS, counting the start of the GCD spin as the start of the minute, and the start of the 26th gcd spin as the end of the minute.

Refresh is 60 TP / 3 s = 20 TP/s

HT>RoT > repeat
Cost - (70 + 120) / 2 = 95 TP/gcd = 39.5 TP/s - 20 TP/s = 19.5 TP/s.
1500 TP / 19.5 TP/s = 76.9 seconds before TP 0 (or ~31 gcds)

HT>RoTx9 > repeat
Cost - (70 + 120x9) / 10 = 115 TP/gcd = 47.9 TP/s - 20 TP/s = 27.9 TP/s
1500 TP / 27.9 TP/s = 53.7 seconds before TP 0 (or ~22 gcds)

HT>RoT>DSx8 > repeat
Cost - (70 + 120 + 160x8) / 10 = 147 TP/gcd = 61.25 TP/s - 20 TP/s = 41.25 TP/s
1500 TP / 41.25 TP/s = 36.4 seconds before TP 0 (or ~15 gcds)

HT>IDC4>IDC4 > repeat
Cost - (70 + (70+60x3)x2) / 9 = 63.3 TP/gcd = 26.39 TP/s - 20 TP/s = 6.39 TP/s
1500 TP / 6.39 TP/s = 234.8 seconds before TP 0 (or ~97 gcds)



Potency per gcd (since gcd times are different per person) of each rotation:
HT > RoT > Repeat

( 170x1.15 + 150x1.15x[#] ) / 2
1 - 184 ppgcd x 31 gcds = 5,704 potency
2 - 270 ppgcd x 31 gcds = 8,377 potency
3 - 356 ppgcd x 31 gcds = 11,052 potency (9,269 in 26 gcds)
4 - 443 ppgcd x 31 gcds = 13,725 potency (11,512 in 26 gcds)
5 - 529 ppgcd x 31 gcds = 16,399 potency (13,754 in 26 gcds)
9 - 874 ppgcd x 31 gcds = 27,094 potency (22,724 in 26 gcds)

HT > RoT x9 > Repeat

( 170 + 150x1.15x[#] + 100x1.15x8x[#] ) / 10
1 - 126 ppgcd x 22 gcds = 2,777 potency
2 - 235 ppgcd x 22 gcds = 5,181 potency
3 - 345 ppgcd x 22 gcds = 7,584 potency
4 - 454 ppgcd x 22 gcds = 9,988 potency
5 - 563 ppgcd x 22 gcds = 12,392 potency
9 - 1000 ppgcd x 22 gcds = 22,006 potency

HT > RoT > DS x8 > Repeat

( 170 + 150x1.15x[#] + 160x1.15x8x[#] ) / 10
1 - 181 ppgcd x 15 gcds = 2,721 potency
2 - 345 ppgcd x 15 gcds = 5,188 potency
3 - 510 ppgcd x 15 gcds = 7,655 potency
4 - 674 ppgcd x 15 gcds = 10,122 potency
5 - 839 ppgcd x 15 gcds = 12,588 potency
9 - 1497 ppgcd x 15 gcds = 22,455 potency

HT > IDC4 > IDC4 > Repeat
[ with 4 gsk / 1 minute ]

( 170x1.15x1.1 + ( 180x1.15x1.1 + 220x1.15 + 250x1.15x1.1 + [35x[dot]] + 290 ) x2 ) / 9 + ( 200x1.15x[#]/22 )
[dot] = 3.6 for 1 / 7.2 for 2 / 10 for 3+
1 - 325 ppgcd x 97 gcds = 31,541 potency
2 - 367 ppgcd x 97 gcds = 35,679 potency
3 - 403 ppgcd x 97 gcds = 39,122 potency (10,486 in 26 gcds)
4 - 414 ppgcd x 97 gcds = 40,136 potency (10,758 in 26 gcds)
5 - 424 ppgcd x 97 gcds = 41,150 potency (11,030 in 26 gcds)
9 - 466 ppgcd x 97 gcds = 45,207 potency (12,117 in 26 gcds)

Note: This doesn't even take into account the actual optimal rotation for 1 and 2 mobs from the last one. It also doesn't take into account the fact that you'll get 2 Invigorates in those 97 GCDs, not just 1.
(1 being H>IDC4>P>TTT4>repeat with 3 gsk/min)
(2 being H>IDC4>IDC4>H>TTT4>IDC4>H>IDC4>TTT4>repeat with 4 gsk/min)

Now, if you actually really examine all of this data, you'll realize that what you want to do is not just stick to one of these rotations as the "optimal AoE rotation" - because that doesn't exist. Doom Spike absolutely puts out the highest damage in the shortest time, but if your TP hits zero and things are still alive, your output drops like a rock.

In my experience, trash pulls in dungeons last ~1 minute (60 seconds) or longer (longest is usually around 1:20 with me there on DRG(1500+), DRK(1300+), WHM(900+), SCH(900+), or BLM(1600+)). Doom Spike sees you at zero in ~30 seconds. And then you'll be stuck hitting one gcd (or fewer) every 3 seconds while you wait on TP ticks. And then what do you do for the next pull? Yeah. Bad times.

If you want to optimize your dps in a dungeon setting, what I tend to do is open with rotation 3 (that is: HT>RoT>DSx8) until I have to hit Invigorate (which I do around 200 TP remaining) and then I settle into rotation 4 with BotD for the remainder. I'll usually pop B4B and IR for that opening shot (unless it's the pull right before the boss - I prefer doing full openers on boss mobs, since having an optimal rotation there tends to cut the time down from ~2 min to ~1:30 for the boss fights). If you pop HT>[IR>B4B]>etc, you'll have B4B up for the entire rotation of RoT>DSx8, though mine usually ends around DS 6 or so (whenever I hit Invigorate, I hit HT and go into my ST rotation with 4x gsk, of which I'll usually get in 2-3 before everything dies).

So let's look at what I'm saying here in-depth:

Under the cut: An in-depth examination of the rotation I posit here, optimized to the best of my ability by simply looking at math for a 1:20-1:30 duration battle.

(I messed around a bit and found what I think is the optimal cutoff for when you would want to start single-target rotation)

0s - HT [TP - 930]
2.4s - RoT [TP - 810]
3s - !!! [TP - 870]
4.8s - DS 1 [TP - 710]
6s - !!! [TP - 770]
7.2s - DS 2 [TP - 610]
9s - !!! [TP - 670]
9.6s - DS 3 [TP - 510]
12s - !!! [TP - 570]
12s - DS 4 [TP - 410]
14.4s - DS 5 [TP - 250]
15s - !!! [TP - 310]
15.4s - Invigorate [TP - 810]
16.8s - DS 6 [TP - 650]
18s - !!! [TP - 710]
19.2s - DS 7 [TP - 550]
21s - !!! [TP - 610]
21.6s - DS 8 [TP - 450]
24s - !!! [TP - 510]
>> Single-target rotation

So we get 8 Doom Spikes before getting into the Single-Target. We're now ~25 seconds into the pull. With 510 TP remaining, our single-target rotation is sustainable for:
510 / 6.39 = 79 seconds - a bit over 1 minute.

This should be absolutely perfect to last out the duration of the pull, no matter its size. The pull in total would end up being approximately 105 seconds - 1:45 - which is longer than any dungeon mob pull I have ever been a part of by ~15 seconds. Plenty of breathing room. For a first pull, you might want to stop DS sooner in order to maintain a higher TP threshold at the end of the fight to carry over into the next one. It might also be prudent not to burn so far down if you're in a situation where the boss is up next. TP is a valuable resource, and you only get one Invigorate per 120s, so you need to be cautious.

Important to note: You CAN swap out that last Doom Spike for HT>RoT, but you'd end up losing a B4B-buffed aoe skill, since either way you slice the 9 gcds, you'll get RoT+DSx7+HT. If you do the full 8 and THEN HT>RoT, you're losing a substantial amount of TP that will end up making you zero out far sooner.

That said, if we assume this pull will end at ~1 minute (60s), we can progress this further:

24s - HT [TP - 440]
26.4s - ID [TP - 370]
27s - !!! [TP - 430]
28.8s - Dis [TP - 370]
30s - !!! [TP - 430]
31.2s - CT [TP - 370] [BotD - 15s]
33s - !!! [TP - 430]
33.6s - 4th [TP - 370] [gsk 1] [BotD - 17.6s]
36s - !!! [TP - 430]
36s - ID [TP - 360]
38.4s - Dis [TP - 300]
39s - !!! [TP - 360]
40.8s - CT [TP - 300]
42s - !!! [TP - 360]
43.2s - 4th [TP - 300] [gsk 2] [BotD - 13s]
45s - !!! [TP - 360]
45.6s - HT [TP - 290]
48s - !!! [TP - 350]
48s - ID [TP - 280]
50.4s - Dis [TP - 220]
51s - !!! [TP - 280]
52.8s - CT [TP - 220]
54s - !!! [TP - 280]
55.2s - 4th [TP - 220] [BotD - 15.8s]
57.6s - ID [TP - 150] [gsk 3] [BotD - 3.4s]
57s - !!! [TP - 210]
60s - Dis [TP - 150]

RIP Everything.

So now, we can make a table of how much potency we would have done in this 60s fight, by examining the full rotation we did:
HT>RoT>DSx8>HT>IDC4>IDC4>HT>IDC4>ID>Dis>[end] with 3x gsk
Total potency (Assuming everything dies simultaneously after gsk 3, with Dis being the last hit on the one straggler):
(170 + 150x1.15x[#] + 160x1.15x8x[#]) + (170x1.15x2.1)+(180x1.15x4.3)+(220x1.15x4)+(250x1.15x1.1x4)+(dots)+(290x1.15x1.1x3) + (200x1.15x1.1 + 200x1.15x(#-1)) + (200x1.15x1.1x2 + 200x1.15x(#-2)) + (200x1.15x1.1x3 + 200x1.15x(#-3)

dots - adding up the timer for all the Chaos Thrust dots (counting them as clipped at 57s due to mob deaths) we have 13.9 dot ticks.
dots = 35x1.15x13.9
3 - 12,549 potency
4 - 14,883 potency
5 - 17,218 potency
9 - 26,556 potency

If you compare this to the numbers above, you'll see that it quite significantly beats every single one of the other rotations in a 60s encounter, by a large enough margin that the estimations inherent in those calculations can be considered to have a negligible impact on the results.

tl;dr: The optimal AoE rotation (when you have Invigorate) is:

HT>RoT>DS x(8)>[HT>IDC4>IDC4]>Repeat [ ].

The amount of DS can be lessened if your partner dps is super bad. This rotation will sustain nicely for ~1:20-1:30, depending on skill speed. Dropping 1-2 DS can extend that by 10-20s.

When Invigorate is on cooldown, or won't be back before you start, the only rotation with any sort of viable sustainability is the 4th:

HT>IDC4>IDC4>Repeat [with 4x gsk per minute]

And you should use it in those situations.


And, I will tell you, straight up:

The only situation when spamming HT>RoT>DSx8 is actually optimal without ever swapping to a single-target rotation is in the case where your partner dps is also shitting out 2000+ aoe DPS, your tank is doing 1500, and your healer is doing 1000. The situations that this will happen outside a premade party are literally Z E R O.

So, I hope my math helps to get you off your high horse and realize that people not named DE-Roxas know what we're talking about.

[Morzy]

Ok... ill just continue playing monk where stuff doesnt get broke down in walls of text just to prove and argue that you can aoe.. honestly all youre doing here is making DRG more intimidating to use than it already is to me. Some people just wanna have fun.

[JackFross]

Nah, the AoE is simple. You have max damage by spamming one AoE skill and max sustainability by using a modified single-target while using an off-gcd AoE skill. I made the wall of text because the OP was continuously talking out their ass about the merits of different rotations and calling others dumb for thinking that the optimal rotation in a 3-mob pull was actually optimal in a 3-mob pull.