If tank damage is now based on VIT, why do healers still have Cleric Stance?

[Ultimatecalibur]

That's not quite accurate.

Some MMOs just have one caster stat and both heals and damage spells are based on that.

Some MMOs have separate stats for healer spells like FF14 but their damage and healing spells scale off the same stat.

These mean that they dont need a special stance to do some damage while questing.

But in some (not all, but enough) MMOs, healer damage potential can be so bad that to complete tasks that Tanks and DpS can normally complete solo they need to party with others or they can not complete it in a timely manor.

We are looking at two sides of the same coin. We pretty much agree on the purpose of Cleric stance: Healers need to be effective in Solo content, but not so effective that they can perform equally to DpS in party content.

My "unintended emergent gameplay" point was about the fact that the Dev team did not expect Healers to "Stance Dance" with Cleric Stance in order to increase their DpS while doing a party content. Players realized that could do so and then ran with it.

Take paladins for example: they use conjuror as their job support class. Now if you take cure you can do reasonable heals at lower levels and that's because it uses your base stats. When you gear up the mind component stays the same so with gear you'll have much more health so each heal will cover less of your overall health leaving it useless.

Uhm, the major reason Paladin heals from Cures fall off so fast is because the magic damage on swords starts lower and scales far slower. (Weathered Shortsword starts at 4 Magic Damage and Almace scales to 53 Magic Damage while a Weathered Cane starts a 8 Magic Damage and Majestas ends up at 105 Magic Damage) That, combined with lack of Mind on Paladin gear, means that the gap between the amounts healed by a single Cure widens incredibly as ilevels increase. An i210 Paladin's Cure heals around as much as that of a naked White Mage using an i55 Weapon.

[RickXRolled]

He can probably tank you under the table, he heals himself so their goes your leech theory.

While Strength tanks are more closer to dying which the healer is healing him alone while others are dying by the time they reach others the tank is dead.

While healer can focus on others while a vit tank can take some punishment.

You sound very ignorant.

[Zeonx]

You sound very ignorant.

No its just speaking the truth, so far from my experience on the game, vit tanks are the best, I ain't saying my cousin is the best but he's pretty damn good at his job.

You can call me anything you want, doesn't change the fact strength tanks aren't good, I have yet to run into one that has not died and first thing i notice is the super low hit points they come into the party with and suck up all the curing and first thing they do is complain about healer.

then when they go to vote kick I say no or I leave cause I want to get the job done not see some paladin pointing the finger and pissed because hes dying.

When I see people calling me names for pointing this out, seems to me that I might be pouring more salt into your wound.

Vit tanks destroy strength tanks. lets face it the only reason they go strength is they do PVP they aren't meant for partys.

[RickXRolled]

No its just speaking the truth, so far from my experience on the game, vit tanks are the best, I ain't saying my cousin is the best but he's pretty damn good at his job.

You can call me anything you want, doesn't change the fact strength tanks aren't good, I have yet to run into one that has not died and first thing i notice is the super low hit points they come into the party with and suck up all the curing and first thing they do is complain about healer.

then when they go to vote kick I say no or I leave cause I want to get the job done not see some paladin pointing the finger and pissed because hes dying.

When I see people calling me names for pointing this out, seems to me that I might be pouring more salt into your wound.

Vit tanks destroy strength tanks. lets face it the only reason they go strength is they do PVP they aren't meant for partys.

As I said before

You sound very ignorant.

Maybe one day you will understand how bad your line of thinking was, but by then the changes will probably already be implemented.

Besides, if your cousin is so pro and yet he has to heal himself despite being a brick wall there is a fundamental problem somewhere.

[Asmodai]

Well, we all know why cleric stance in raids is even a thing right? Its because most dps is not doing what they are supposed to be doing so tanks and healers need to maximize dps to clear content. Content on this game is done without taking healer dps into account. In a raid im already solo healing most of the fight and im expected to dps while the other healer is just dpsing, if he does not want to increase my dps and get rid of cleric the least he could do is lower the cool down on cleric stance.

[FoxyAreku]

No, Cleric Stance is there to allow Healers to meet the DpS requirements of Solo content without being forced to party like they are in other MMOs. Healers stance dancing in duties is the result of unintended emergent gameplay.

That...is not even close to accurate. Healer DPS in groups unitended? Really? You can't honestly think something so ridiculous, can you?

Healers have always been intended to do damage in ALL aspects of the game. They didn't give every healer class a new, higher potency filler move in heavensward for it to not be used. (Not to mention Aero III, Assize's ridiculous damage potential, etc..)

And before someone jumps down my throat...intended=/=required.

[Pomelo]

While Strength tanks are more closer to dying which the healer is healing him alone while others are dying by the time they reach others the tank is dead.
While healer can focus on others while a vit tank can take some punishment.



If you ask me a strength tank is more of a leech.

To be honest STR tanks require less healing because the enemies are dead faster, they can keep themselves alive more because Bloodbath and Clemency and every Self Heal in all 3 Tanks arsenal is currently based on STR (after the change its prolly VIT)
I don't even mind this change especially if they make the oaths not break combo and such, then WAR and PLD both can stance dance like healers can at the moment.

As an AST when I get a pure STR tank, my eyes light up. When I get a pure VIT one I roll my eyes because fights last longer, and I have to heal more. Which means I dps less.
When someone got a mega HP pool that they don't even need, my heals don't magically scale to heal more, they stay the same which means I have to heal more to keep you at full, especially if you one of those OCD tanks that need to be at full all the time



When someone got a mega HP pool that they don't even need, my heals don't magically scale to heal more, they stay the same which means I have to heal more to keep you at full, especially if you one of those OCD tanks that need to be at full all the time

[Kitano123]

No its just speaking the truth, so far from my experience on the game, vit tanks are the best, I ain't saying my cousin is the best but he's pretty damn good at his job.

You can call me anything you want, doesn't change the fact strength tanks aren't good, I have yet to run into one that has not died and first thing i notice is the super low hit points they come into the party with and suck up all the curing and first thing they do is complain about healer.....etc
.

Vit doesnt increase mitigation only health pool, there are no attacks in the game that require full vit HP so a tank without any str acc is wasting potential dps. Unless you have a terrible healer, full vit is pointless.

You'll find most raiding tanks will have at least a few str acc and will swap stances when necesary. Its the optimal way to play.

[Asmodai]

That...is not even close to accurate. Healer DPS in groups unitended? Really? You can't honestly think something so ridiculous, can you?

Healers have always been intended to do damage in ALL aspects of the game. They didn't give every healer class a new, higher potency filler move in heavensward for it to not be used. (Not to mention Aero III, Assize's ridiculous damage potential, etc..)

And before someone jumps down my throat...intended=/=required.

Yoshida: Yes. Since all DPS jobs will be increasing up through level 60, it makes sense to have the white mage's DPS extend by a proportional amount as well. For development, such as with Bahamut's Coils, the development team assumes what the item level should be for general equipment on players when they clear a raid. They sum up the basic DPS for four DPS and tanks at that assumed item level and cut that by about 10-15% for the minimum clear DPS. Healer DPS is not taken into account when this is set.

Certainly for people who are at world's first level, their goal is to clear it at as low an item level as possible, lower than the one assumed during development. So if you look at the fight and figure out that if it's not numerically possible to clear with four DPS and tanks, you'll need to make up the gap with DPS from healers. Then when those publish clear videos and other people see the healers DPSing, they might think that healers need to be DPSing even though its a situation that only arose because their clear would have otherwise been impossible. While we could take this into account, and assume a different item level in the next update which would then make it impossible to clear even with the healer DPS, we'd eliminate this type of play for highly skilled players who use communication, items, and a high level of understanding to come up with those last second clears. That would be a tough decision to make, so I still think it should be up to each party's own plans.

This is also one of the reasons we decided to implement both a normal and savage version of Alexander. Once again, healer DPS was not included in the development team's calculation as it was for other jobs, so you should just think of healer DPS as a last way to get your overall party's DPS up to where it needs to be.

[Launched]

Well, we all know why cleric stance in raids is even a thing right? Its because most dps is not doing what they are supposed to be doing so tanks and healers need to maximize dps to clear content

Healer DPS is a thing because people want to clear content when undergeared, and they want to clear content more quickly because that's safer. You don't just stop trying to increase group DPS when you barely clear a fight before enrage.