Bard - they broke my job

[ruskie]

It boosts all your damage oGCDs and GCDs. Infact it is a loss if you don't use WM for oGCDs from what I've been following.

[Sareal]

If Minuet's damage boost only really covers the loss of auto-attack, then are Bards supposed to 'minuet dance' in single target situations, turning it on just to use Emperyal and Iron Jaws (and to apply DoTs) and then turning it back off after? If they are, then isn't that kinda bad design, because it'd basically imply that Minuet doesn't really add anything beneficial and only exists to restrict gameplay.

Actually, it was meant to be danced in and out of, it's kind of the point. I don't think I would say bad design per say, because I personally enjoy it. I feel like it adds something that BRDs didn't have before. However, it is indeed weaker than I wished for it to be. I see it more as a means of reducing TP usage, by not needing to reapply DOTs so often. Also, there is no reason you shouldn't be in Minuet if you aren't moving, and dropping it as soon as you need to be moving, even if it only covers auto-attack damage, simply due to how Minuet save tons of TP.

[ruskie]

Actually, it was meant to be danced in and out of, it's kind of the point. I don't think I would say bad design per say, because I personally enjoy it. I feel like it adds something that BRDs didn't have before. However, it is indeed weaker than I wished for it to be. I see it more as a means of reducing TP usage, by not needing to reapply DOTs so often. Also, there is no reason you shouldn't be in Minuet if you aren't moving, and dropping it as soon as you need to be moving, even if it only covers auto-attack damage, simply due to how Minuet save tons of TP.

If you can dance WM on off then you have 0 extra sks - at ~600 sks empy recast is 14.1-2something seconds so it's up sooner than WM would be off CD.

[Rowyne]

I'm actually sort of sitting here wondering if Minuet's damage boost actually makes your weaponskills do more damage than if you had Minuet turned off and thus had the ability to auto-attack, especially in a single target scenario. Because to me, it kind of feels like Minuet's damage boost only barely covers the loss of auto-attack damage. Although I don't know if Minuet actually boosts the damage of off-GCD skills like Misery's End, Sidewinder, and Flaming Arrow either.

If Minuet's damage boost only really covers the loss of auto-attack, then are Bards supposed to 'minuet dance' in single target situations, turning it on just to use Emperyal and Iron Jaws (and to apply DoTs) and then turning it back off after? If they are, then isn't that kinda bad design, because it'd basically imply that Minuet doesn't really add anything beneficial and only exists to restrict gameplay.

With auto-attack making up around 20% of DPS, it's definitely closer to a wash than a huge boost. You have to do a fair bit of stance-dancing to get the most benefit. Even then, it definitely feels like a struggle to do decent DPS compared to 2.0 bard.

I'm definitely not a fan of the design. I have no problem stance-dancing on a healer with cleric stance because, as a caster, it's a class that's never been designed to be mobile. But bard is completely mobile up until level 52. The change feels foreign, shoehorned and clunky to me.

[Sareal]

If you can dance WM on off then you have 0 extra sks - at ~600 sks empy recast is 14.1-2something seconds so it's up sooner than WM would be off CD.

There is a difference between using and dropping it as soon as it is off cooldown or as soon as you used empyreal, and dancing it as it was intended. The point being, is that Minuet should always be up whenever you are standing still, as even if Minuet only compensates for auto-attack, it is technically not a DPS loss unless you move, in which case, you simply drop it (no cast or cooldown are triggered from dropping it) to move, keep dpsing, and then when you find yourself safe to stand still again, resume Minuet.

[ruskie]

There is a difference between using and dropping it as soon as it is off cooldown or as soon as you used empyreal, and dancing it as it was intended. The point being, is that Minuet should always be up whenever you are standing still, as even if Minuet only compensates for auto-attack, it is technically not a DPS loss unless you move, in which case, you simply drop it (no cast or cooldown are triggered from dropping it) to move, keep dpsing, and then when you find yourself safe to stand still again, resume Minuet.

Or you know you stutter step. Plenty of time to move after casts or you get a straighter shot proc and you can move anywhere you want in those 2.5s of gcd. But yeah I can understand people trying to stance dance and if it works out for then great!

[kalasnikov]

If it was meant to be stance danced, it would not had that 3 second cast time at 3.0........silly people. always overthinking.

[RiceisNice]

Actually, it was meant to be danced in and out of, it's kind of the point. I don't think I would say bad design per say, because I personally enjoy it.

I don't think something with a turret-concept is supposed to be stance danced to maximize damage. Mobility maybe, but not damage.

[vp_cmc]

Minuet save tons of TP.

I still fail to see how it saves tons of TP. You save 40 tp every 18 seconds (60 tp for IJ + 60 tp for HS\SS vs 80+80 tp if use VB+WB. Don't compare 1 gcd vs 2 gcds and tell that it is 60 tp vs 160 - it is just wrong), but you spend extra 60 tp every 15 seconds using empyreal arrow.

[aabe]

.

You're playing a job with a common proc that hits for as hard as it's biggest GCD skill save for dots. Having WM off as often as you're implying is murder on your DPS.

Throw that on top of having CDs exclusive to minuet and a few other things, and you get a big fat no. There's been all sorts of math done for BRD, and the closest thing supporting what you're saying, is the idea of dropping WM very briefly which requires knowing your autoattack timer, and that doesn't imply you'll be swapping stances whenever possible, because there are a lot of other conditions that need to be met. If someone was as godly as you'd need to be to push BRD to the fullest with that optimization we'd still be talking a maybe 2% increase in DPS and that feels generous.
Almost all movement in endgame is about as long as a GCD or two, and depending on how your off-GCD is looking, feint is usually better. The worst case of movement you can really name across a million fights is bluefire in T12, which was maybe 3-4 GCDs and fairly spaced out, and even then, most good groups had healers handling that mechanic.