Am I bad for actually "tanking"?

[Alphras]

If you are refusing to play your class to the fullest because that is not how you played in other games, that would make you "bad" in my book. As the others stated the extra VIT is just wasted most of the time. Knowing how much hp you need for which content is the key here.

Not utilizing your full class kit, which includes quite a few offensive abilities for all three tanks, doesn't make you a good player either.

[Torunya]

Thanks for all the responses, they've all made the situation a lot clearer for me. =)

[Februs]

A lot of people are saying as though the additional Hp is a bad thing, but I hope you realize that it's really not. Don't get me wrong. They're not incorrect to point out that there is a minimum Hp ceiling that is required for content, and that going past that point is widely unnecessary. To my knowledge, the current minimum Hp for a Tank is around 16 k. After reaching that point, it can be more efficient to start focusing on Str ... but there's really nothing wrong with having more Hp.

You specified Pld in your OP. Pld's have abysmal Dps regardless of whether or not they are using full Vit or full Str. If the Dps are having trouble meeting Dps checks without the tiny difference made by Str, then the problem is with the Dps, not you. The bottom line is that, whereas everyone can and should contribute to Dps checks, those checks are the responsibility of the Dps. They should not need the Tank to carry them through it.

There is also a trade off in sacrificing your Hp for Dps. Strictly speaking, Pld's have enough baseline Hp on their job that they can easily swap Vit with Str and still meet the 16k Hp line, but you will also lose party mitigation. Divine Veil's barrier effect scales up to 10% of the PLD's Hp, not the target's Hp. Meaning that the lower Hp you have, the weaker the barrier. AoE mitigation for the party goes down. Cover, also, is less efficient, because Pld's take increased Dmg from covering a player with a lower defense rating. It's can be mitigated, but having a higher Hp pool is easier to work with.

Unfortunately, the current Tank meta is not designed for this kind of tanking. Everything is geared to Dps, rather than mitigation. So, in a lot of instances, you'll find that having higher Dps is better than mitigating more dmg, especially since most Dps are scrubs and can't meet checks on their own. However, there's nothing wrong with focusing on mitigation rather than Dps, especially as a Pld. Pld's are not kitted to burst dmg like Wars and Drks. Having extra Str is by far the least noticeable on a Pld. What's more important for Pld is knowing when and where you can and should be dropping Oath, not how many Str accessories you have.

[ChaozK]

The bottom line is that, whereas everyone can and should contribute to Dps checks, those checks are the responsibility of the Dps. They should not need the Tank to carry them through it.

Thats actually not correct. The devs have specifically stated that they balance all dps checks around the dmg of 4 dps AND 2 TANKS.
While i agree that 4 dps can easily compensate for the lack of tank dmg (depending on the content you are doing) and that they probably balanced around vit specced tanks, its still a dangerous thought to say that as a tank dps is not your responsibility - it frankly is.
Has nothing to do with carrying dps but just contributing your share.

[Praesul]

Not only that, but refusing to help if your DPS are having trouble is a shitty attitude. "Not my job" is not an excuse. What if a DPS or healer refused to help with mitigation? Refusing to virus, eye for an eye, apocatastasis, stoneskin, disable, adlo? Mitigation is YOUR job, not theirs. So they're going to withold off GCDs that have zero or minimal impact on their own dps because why should they care?


It's a team effort, refusing to put forth extra effort because you shouldn't have to makes you a bad team player.

[kensatsu]

PLD is arround 950 dps in STR as OT, but many group don't have PLD as OT and it's often a bad think.
Think PLD is lower dps than others tank is right , but don't think pld don't bring dps it's not true. It's totaly false, it's lower but it's not as weak you think.
Everybody know War can dance with the stance will MT.
It's why sometimes when both tank is in str : PLD MT and WAR OT is not always the perfect thing to do/ PLD OT and WAR MT, can sometimes bring more dps. in the phase 1 of A1S for exemple.
So do as you wish : bring vit or str or both, but the pld dps is not the excuse for bringing vit, you bring it if you think you need it.
i play both tank in STR, and i know war output is strong, after it's dark and after the pld. but i think the dps output of pld is still fine to not ignore it.

[Jamillion]

This HAS been brought up actually, several times. Instead of making everyone repeat themselves on a weekly basis please search the forums for similar topics. There are multiple reasons to add strength accessories, your self heals for one scale directly off of attack power, the best way to mitigate damage in this game is to prevent it outright by killing the attacker, and yes, it is useful to assist with pushing group DPS. So, stop acting high and mighty if you have no idea what you're talking about.

[Februs]

While i agree that 4 dps can easily compensate for the lack of tank dmg (depending on the content you are doing) and that they probably balanced around vit specced tanks, its still a dangerous thought to say that as a tank dps is not your responsibility - it frankly is. .

You're misunderstanding me a little. I'm not saying that Tank Dps is not the Tank's responsibility. Everyone who does dmg is responsible for their own dmg. However, the actual Dps checks are not made or broken by Tank Dps alone, which is what a lot of players make it out to be these days.

The fact is that there is no justification whatsoever for Dps not being able to meet a check just because their MT is a Pld. That's a load of crap and is an excuse to cover up poor or lazy Dps. I agree with you that all of the party members should be contributing the best that they can. That includes the Tank. However, the tiny increase provided by a STR build should not be the deciding factor in whether or not your party meets a check. Further, a tank should not be expected to sacrifice their optimal efficiency of their primary job for the sake of helping the Dps do theirs. Pld's excel at mitigation. If one chooses to get additional efficiency out of Divine Veil or Cover by having extra Hp rather than STR, they should not be criticized for that decision. Lest of all by Dps.

[Torunya]

Pld's excel at mitigation. If one chooses to get additional efficiency out of Divine Veil or Cover by having extra Hp rather than STR, they should not be criticized for that decision.

I agree with everything you're saying, especially this.

But from what I've gathered the current metagame is not in favor of this kind of playstyle at present. Which I personally find unfortunate. I guess my definition of tanking had become a little jaded over time too, I can admit that. And I hear you Februs. <3 But I'm not partial, so I'll definitely try and work in a little Str in my repertoire while staying above the effective health limit and see how it goes. I am grateful for all these replies, and I'm learning bucket loads from reading them. If I can learn to be an even better tank than I was yesterday, then that's the best I could've achieved. So thanks.

PS: A little arrogance is just healthy.

[Sapphidia]

The fact is that there is no justification whatsoever for Dps not being able to meet a check just because their MT is a Pld. That's a load of crap and is an excuse to cover up poor or lazy Dps. I agree with you that all of the party members should be contributing the best that they can. That includes the Tank. However, the tiny increase provided by a STR build should not be the deciding factor in whether or not your party meets a check.

I'm not going to say you're -wrong- here, but this is very much the opinion and attitude of someone who hasnt experienced Savage raiding when it first came out, and this is where most of the Str>Vit stuff has come from.

Back when Savage Alex was released, what you said was literally 100% False. DPS checks were so tight that actually having a paladin in the party WOULD mean your party failed the DPS checks. The "small" boost from being strength spec is actually about a 25% damage increase over an identically geared tank in vitality accessories. When that tank can put out maybe 80-90% of the damage of a pure DPSer by playing well, compared to a vitality paladin who'd struggle to do 30-40% the damage of a DPSer, the result was clear:

When it first came out, much of Savage Alex was -literally impossible- for a lot of groups running paladins and/or not optimising the DPS output of their tanks (A4S wasnt cleared with a paladin for ages after first kill, and whilst paladins were present on early A1/A3 kills, you can guarantee they were spending most time in sword oath and slaying accessories).

Now obviously gear has come along and people can do it, and these kind of DPS checks dont really exist in lower tier content. There's literally no reason a tank can't go pure vit spec in a 4 man and the run will probably be just as successful as a pure strength - provided the tank is good. When you're talking about lower tier content you're basically balancing threat/damage output and speed of the run vs.. a kind of cushion.

The issue is that on virtually all content where the DPS checks arent all that important (bar maybe Thordan Ex), the actual damage input isnt much either. If a tank can survive huge pulls in the Aboretum with 16k health, why would the tank use 22k health vitality spec? The backlash about bad tanks and bad healers is entirely due to this - you do not NEED the 22k health pool to tank 4 mans. Is it sliiiightly safer? Yes. But only an undergeared, bad or inexperienced healer would struggle to keep a 16k health tank alive on 4 man content, unless the tank themselves was bad. Of course, you don't NEED the extra damage from strength spec either, but you notice its effects more.

A pure vitality tank :

- does 25% less damage (aand threat) than a pure Strength tank
- requires exactly the same healing input as a pure Strength tank, if not more due to less self healing from Bloodbath/Abyssal/Souleater
- can survive maybe 1-2 second longer on big pulls without a heal if the healer is slow/bad/DCs

This is the problem. Vitality Spec seems tankier due to the much larger health pool, but in reality all that health pool is doing is giving you a buffer for mistakes. That's fine, if you want the buffer. But you shouldnt NEED the buffer, and anyone who does is unfortunately going to be tarred with the brush of being inexperienced or bad (either the tank or the healer). If you're doing Duty Finder and don't know who your healer is, then by all means mix in some extra Vitality just in case, of course. It's all about a balance.

A tank who only runs pure vitality spec and full fending accessories on ALL content, whether it's easy or hard, is just a BAD TANK, period.

Though likewise, a tank who only ever runs pure strength spec and full slaying accessories on ALL content, even when undergeared,including the stuff that can oneshot them if they dont have a big enough buffer, or when the healer is incredibly undergeared or laggy in a DF party... that tank is bad too.

Good tanks are the ones that truly understand what Strength and Vitality do for their class on an encounter-by-encounter basis and adapt their gear and build to the situation. It's just that when you overgear content, pure strength and full slaying is almost always the best choice as an option.