FFXIV is in a Prime Position to Make Some Drastic Changes

[BlatantPyre]

RDM could work <...> Jack of all trades, yes - but MASTER OF NONE <...> The thing that makes it generally unworkable, in my mind, is not a question of what abilities it has <...> it's a question of queues.

What would a RDM queue as? Healer? <...> Tank? <...> DPS?

Vertical progression is a good thing. Horizontal, not so much. <and then everything else he said that was spot on>

You read my mind, man.

The biggest problem I noticed too was if they introduced a job that wasn't locked into the role system, how would the queue work as it is now? I thought breaking the vertical progression would begin to help address it, but I've since changed my mind. I had a thought about having it queue untethered to any specific role, then as the roles were gradually filled it would close the gap...i don't know now though, maybe. It would always either be tank or heals, and honestly I didn't really see RDM as a tank, more in line with DRG (access to better armor than other dps) but with the capacity to be a healer. I ALSO thought about it having some Mystic Knight mechanics...you know, attributing BLM spells into a rune blade, allowing for elemental damage on top of harder hits...and give me chain spell...

Anyway, I'm excited for it nonetheless, I was just pondering how it would fit in.

[Shurrikhan]

The biggest problem I noticed too was if they introduced a job that wasn't locked into the role system, how would the queue work as it is now? I thought breaking the vertical progression would begin to help address it, but I've since changed my mind. I had a thought about having it queue untethered to any specific role, then as the roles were gradually filled it would close the gap...i don't know now though, maybe. It would always either be tank or heals, and honestly I didn't really see RDM as a tank, more in line with DRG (access to better armor than other dps) but with the capacity to be a healer. I ALSO thought about it having some Mystic Knight mechanics...you know, attributing BLM spells into a rune blade, allowing for elemental damage on top of harder hits...and give me chain spell...

Anyway, I'm excited for it nonetheless, I was just pondering how it would fit in.

Yeah, this is what gets me, too, about RDM, though I'm not sure it'd be such a big deal insofar as how it would queue--more, that it would have to pick one role to queue as, and that most parties would have to hinge its use on a particular use rather than making the best use of all three combined roles. Ideally, I'd want it to be something outside the role system, but in reality it's more likely going to be able to qualify for only one role at a time, likely gearing for healer, tank, or dps, and queueing accordingly. That said, even without gearing for the particular role, it could easily just pick a role in the meaning not of limited capability (after all, our tanks and healers can both DPS significantly enough) but of intention to fulfilling its obligations (keeping the party alive when healing, holding aggro as necessary when tanking), noting that whatever else they might contribute they can and most likely will be kicked if they do not perform the role they signed on as, just like any bad role-locked tank, healer, or dps.

[RiceisNice]

The biggest problem I noticed too was if they introduced a job that wasn't locked into the role system....

There's no unwritten rule that RDM has to be a support, or jack-of-all, though. Everyone dork knight as a dps job, but it seems to fit the tanking role jsut fine, provided they have been given the tools for such. FFXIV has done pretty well as far as taking concepts from the FF series and molding it into something that works in an MMO setting, BLMwith the astral/umbral mechanic for example. It clearly doesnt play as a traditional FF blackmage, but at hte same time draws from it's concept of having a wide pletioria of elemental spells and make it work without the elemental wheel (which is typically an extremely limiting factor in any MMO game)

[Shurrikhan]

There's no unwritten rule that RDM has to be a support, or jack-of-all, though. Everyone dork knight as a dps job, but it seems to fit the tanking role just fine, provided they have been given the tools for such. FFXIV has done pretty well as far as taking concepts from the FF series and molding it into something that works in an MMO setting, BLM with the astral/umbral mechanic for example. It clearly doesnt play as a traditional FF blackmage, but at the same time draws from it's concept of having a wide plethora of elemental spells and make it work without the elemental wheel (which is typically an extremely limiting factor in any MMO game)

I guess what's being mused about then isn't so much a class that has things in common with the RDM, but the iconic hybrid niche that RDM has happened to fill.

We basically can get another class with weapon enchants, mixed melee and spell-casting, and maybe even a single-target Refresh, any day. My tank can wear a shiny red coat and hat. Monks have the Red Thief set which looks pretty close... But a real hybrid, that's the real rarity that I think a lot of people would like to see pulled off, though preferably with one the best dressed and most iconic jobs to meet that description.

[Alahra]

There's no unwritten rule that RDM has to be a support, or jack-of-all, though.

Indeed--honestly, RDM's identity isn't particularly concrete across the various FF titles. While it always has melee, black magic, and white magic, there have only been a couple of the titles where it's actually been notably good at all three things at once. In terms of hitting all three of those bases, I suspect tank is actually the easiest fit for FFXIV's current paradigm (black magic for ranged/AoE threat stuff, white magic for self-heals/defensive cooldowns [like Phalanx/Stoneskin/Blink from FFXI], and then tanks are naturally in melee). But they could just as easily minimize the melee aspect, too, and make it a healer, since they already have both offensive and defensive magic (healer doesn't even necessarily preclude melee, but given their penchant for raid mechanics that make healers stay away from the group, that might get kind of messy).

What I don't see RDM being is a straight DPS, though (unless perhaps they do some sort of split-job thing like SMN/SCH--but that's highly unlikely).

[Shyle]

What I don't see RDM being is a straight DPS, though (unless perhaps they do some sort of split-job thing like SMN/SCH--but that's highly unlikely).

Could be a melee dps/support (using spells like enfire etc to not only buff their own weapon but the melee party members as well). Basically using TP and MP skills for dps with some support added?

[Alahra]

Could be a melee dps/support (using spells like enfire etc to not only buff their own weapon but the melee party members as well). Basically using TP and MP skills for dps with some support added?

If they're DPS, they'd definitely be more in the support avenue (like BRD and MCH I'd wager), that's for sure.

[Shyle]

If they're DPS, they'd definitely be more in the support avenue (like BRD and MCH I'd wager), that's for sure.

Which I don't think would be a good choice to be honest. XIV I think needs to move from Trinity to a 4 pillars style MMO. Where instead of just tank/dps/heal there's Tank/dps/heal/support. Where the support is purely support. They do literally everything, but their main job is to aid each other role with it's buffs/debuffs.That way, Bards can be true bards, using songs to debuff enemies and buff the group, rdms can do their thing, then we can get Ranger as a true physical mobile dps and machinist as a mobile dps ranged slot with turrets (?). I honestly don't know what the role of machinist was in previous FF games, so maybe not have ranger and just have MCH take the mobile ranged dps spot? But considering the game is based on 4 man variant groups (4/8/24) having that fourth pillar would fit fine for groups.

in any case, the hybrid classes (BRD/MCH) suffer in this game without the support role as a slot for the group. just my .02$.

[Alahra]

Which I don't think would be a good choice to be honest. XIV I think needs to move from Trinity to a 4 pillars style MMO. Where instead of just tank/dps/heal there's Tank/dps/heal/support.

It's honestly too late for that, and it would cause huge disruptions in the Duty Finder, really. Support roles are already rather rare (if you ever played FFXI, you probably know how rare yet sought-after BRDs, RDMs, and CORs were), and they wouldn't really fit into the Light Party/Full Party setup very well, which is built around a foundation of 1 tank, 1 healer, and 2 DPS (and then doubled for Full Parties).

Adding a codified support role would mean either changing the party setup to a 5-man/10-man structure/30-man structure, or giving the support classes enough DPS so that they could still fill the role of the 2nd DPS in 4-man content (which is pretty much the system we have now). Even if they went with the 5-person party foundation, support roles would arguably be more rare than Healers are (and potentially as rare as, or even more rare than, tanks are), creating yet another bottleneck for Duty Finder queues to get through.

It's just not feasible for the game to do that this late in the game--that's the sort of thing the game would have to have been built around from the ground up.

[BlatantPyre]

As far as RDM goes...<sigh> everything you guys have said makes sense. It's just that, the big reason I've always been into the job is because of the versatility of it. If that goes away, it won't really be RDM to me. I agree that FFXIV has done a good job of redefining many of the old jobs into something not only useful in an MMO, but that expands on what those jobs have been by introducing new mechanics. I wouldn't mind a similar treatment to RDM...but it has to still be RDM. Look at BRD. Of all the jobs, it's the least like it's original counter-part (heck, it's pretty much in truth Ranger). And which job do we hear the most complaints about? I do mean the most, btw, I know there's complaints across the board...

I don't really care (much) (..too much...) (...maybe a bit) about what role/roles the job will be. I just want it to be able to have some utility and versatility in a fight, is all...