FFXIV is in a Prime Position to Make Some Drastic Changes

[Krylo]

I've personally done serious raiding in several games, non cookie cutter builds, no one knew, no one cared and I wasn't the lowest DPS. Unless you guys actually play with these people, why does it matter? especially since A good majority of raiders in this particular game, already have their own pugs.

But why would you want to do something strictly inferior, even if you're not doing content that requires it? If you can do 1200 DPS with one build, and 1000 with another, why would you choose the one that does 1000? Regardless of the content you're doing, you'll do better using the 'cookie cutter' build, and so why would you want to do less?

I've never understood this argument--the vast majority of actual 'game' in MMOs is about improving and maximizing your damage output, and, for tanks, learning how to maximize defensive CD use to mitigate as much damage as possible, and for healers maximizing healing output without overhealing or running dry on MP (and DPSing when possible).

Not doing that in an MMO is like, I don't know, playing a fighting game and never graduating past button mashing. Sure it might be fun for awhile, but I've never understood how it can be fun continuously.

And THAT is why raiding meta tends to trickle down into the playerbase at large, and things like str tanks aren't just for the people pushing hardcore content anymore, but a thing that most of the player base recognizes as better, and why healer DPS isn't just for raids, but something that is becoming expected. Because pushing the envelope and doing as well as you possibly can is part of the fun for a majority of people, and I just don't see where playing any game repeatedly for months or years on end can be fun in the slightest if you AREN'T doing that, regardless of the content you're doing it in.

I also don't HAVE to buy eso gear. Upgraded law is good enough to clear any of the current content. I don't HAVE to put all my attribute points into str as melee dps or mind as healer or int as magic dps, etc. I could load up on piety as a black mage. It'd be considerably less effective, but I COULD do it, and, hey, it'd even slightly change my play style as I'd be able to maintain astral fire longer! But no one does that! Because it's worse! And no one wants to be worse.

And given that, I'll never understand why 'you don't HAVE to use the mathematically best build unless you're a top raider' is an argument. It's simply not. The majority of people will do what's mathematically best not because they 'have' to, but because their goal is to be the best players they can be--as it should be--and in following that goal there is no 'choice'. Which makes things like skill trees nothing but a meaningless waste of time--both player and dev--as it only exists for people to click the button they were going to click anyway because it's the mathematically superior button.

[Terribad]

Snip

But why would you want to do something strictly inferior

I think our definition of "cookie cutter build" is very different. A cookie cutter build isn't a build that's better, it's usually easy to play, requires no skill, and or some streamer uses it. Let's take Archeage for example, the cookie cutter builds there are DarkRunner and Primevil(sp). Those builds are not the best at all, just easy to play.

I could load up on piety as a black mage. It'd be considerably less effective, but I COULD do it.

Obviously the point is to use stats that could effect your class/job for the better. In Aion as a chanter I could go Crit/Attack Crit/HP and or Attack/HP 3 different builds (which there's more) and each one effects my class for the better.

[Krylo]

I think our definition of "cookie cutter build" is very different. A cookie cutter build isn't a build that's better, it's usually easy to play, requires no skill, and or some streamer uses it. Let's take Archeage for example, the cookie cutter builds there are DarkRunner and Primevil(sp). Those builds are not the best at all, just easy to play.

No. That's really not what it means. Or what it has ever meant.

Cookie cutter builds are pre-designed builds that have been mathematically tested and found to have the best over all potential. Stuff like, to use an example we all remember, the 2.0 stat weights and zeta weapon materias. The cookie cutter Zeta for most DPS classes was Det/Crit. It was mathematically the best choice for them because people calculated out the stat weights (I don't want to go find the 2.x stat weights so no numbers, sorry), and found that det and crit were worth the most DPS out of any secondary stat. And that's why Det 4 materia was at ridiculously high prices during that time. Everyone wanted as much as possible.

The origin of the term is that when you use a cookie cutter, all of the cookies look the same. Thus, a cookie cutter build is one where everyone is taking all the same talents, because they are the superior talents, which results in everyone at end game looking the same. Cookie cutter.

Because it was always used in as a derisionary term, it has taken on a less used usage that is something close to what you're saying, HOWEVER, that's very clearly not what it was being used as in this conversation before I came in, unless you read:

Cookie cutter builds really only matter when it comes to raiding and even more so with progression raiding. Serious progression raid groups don't take people who chose to run non cookie cutter builds. Yes they cut down the number of raiders they have to choose from, but choosing to run a non-cutter build means you see gate yourself off from content.

And thought to yourself 'Yes, that is right. Top tier hardcore raiders only allow people with very easy to play and suboptimal builds into their progression raiding teams. That is how world first clears are made. With poor builds,' it is abundantly and painfully obvious what was meant by the term.

[Terribad]

Snip

Outside of an MMO the term is used when referring to something that's mass produced and **low quality**. In mmos I've only ever heard anyone use that term for "go to" builds. Not necessarily the best in the game, just what the masses go to for being easy.

[RiceisNice]

And given that, I'll never understand why 'you don't HAVE to use the mathematically best build unless you're a top raider' is an argument...

I might just be an outlier, but I played marksman hunter fairly frequently in WoW, even though Beastmaster and Survival are still better (though they're all competitive, really). Sorta like now how BRD is essentially better for most of the circumstances in raiding due to foe and RoD lowering the healer's miss rates, but I still play MCH over them because I like having my wildfire burst. The two functionally fufil the same role but do so somewhat differently. It just becomes a problem when you let that become the limiting factor to really add anything else to the game (such as new jobs or horizontal skill progression), and it makes for a very flat viewpoint for all of the players. People already exclude people for the silliest of reasons (such as excluding MCH/BRD during 3.0), and nothing's going to change that.

Just to rebute, the ultimate goal for the player in a game should be to have fun. Some find it fun to be competitive an shoot for the best, others find it fun to mess around with different gimmicks without being a total burden to the party.

[Krylo]

I might just be an outlier, but I played marksman hunter fairly frequently in WoW, even though Beastmaster and Survival are still better

It's funny you use WoW as an example, because Blizzard agrees with me so hard (and so does EA/Bioware), that those builds don't even exist anymore. They realized most of the talents were pointless, in a given tree, either because everyone took them, or no one did and so the trees are gone. They have been uprooted and sent to the toothpick factory.

That said, while I don't remember hunter very well as it was a long time ago, I remember most classes had very very different feels depending on your main tree--and often fulfilled completely different party rolls (like shadow priests being DPS). So picking a marksman hunter was basically like playing a different, but related, class, compared to Beastmaster/Survival. And that's completely understandable.

However, I have to ask, did you pick your talents in the marksman tree based on which would be most effective?

Because, okay

Just to rebute, the ultimate goal for the player in a game should be to have fun. Some find it fun to be competitive an shoot for the best, others find it fun to mess around with different gimmicks without being a total burden to the party.

I understand this. I really do. Better than most, probably, as whenever I play a tabletop RPG I tend to gravitate toward this kind of play style. For me making something that shouldn't work, work, is a lot of fun--and it puts a strong damper on my power gaming ways so that I don't ruin anyone else's fun. But, the thing is, it's still about being as good as I can be within a constraint, regardless of what that constraint is.

And even in those situations a lot of the 'choices' laid out for you are meaningless.

The only time when you can have meaningful choices is when they create large but roughly balanced changes to core gameplay. I.E. when it's about the equivalent of having a different class. But then, within that class, you still end up with most people looking almost exactly the same--whether they got there through experimentation on their own, or went and looked up a guide written by someone who did.

You probably didn't look much different than other marksman hunters.

And even then, if the numbers don't line up close enough, you end up with a massive dearth of certain classes. Shoulda seen SWtOR at release if you wanted a good example of this. There were lots of classes that no one was playing at all because they were terrible. The smuggler forums were a ghost town. You could learn everyone's forum account by name. I still played smuggler because no other class allowed me to kick sithlords in the dingle berries, but due to the fact that the scoundrel subclass was over-nerfed due to having burst that was too high for fair PvP play, and gunslingers just never being that good until months and months later (and smugglers having animation issues that made them inferior to imperial agents), there was basically no one there. Last time I checked in, it was the marauder/sentinel forums that were mostly empty other than people complaining about how dead their class was. EA/Bioware are absolutely awful at class balance, by the way. Just throwing that out there.

Also, for the record, when I played a WoW hunter last (aaaaaages ago, around the release of BC I think? Maybe?), a Marksman/survival hybrid was best if I remember right.

[Shyle]

They realized most of the talents were pointless, in a given tree, either because everyone took them, or no one did and so the trees are gone. They have been uprooted and sent to the toothpick factory..

Actually they streamlined the old talent trees into what the first iteration of the new skill system is because each expansion was creating a mess of the talents and trying to balance them was near impossible. Skill bloat and meaningless talents was another reason why they changed how talents and skills are done in WoW.The old skill trees in WoW, actually did lend to some pretty cool builds, the hybrid builds for DK that actually topped the charts due to how the skills and talents synergized. Other builds also came about with those trees, but in the end, having 50+ talent points to manage in multiple builds became more of a chore. So they changed how skills/talents are done to a far far far more simplistic and open option.

Right now, in ffxiv we're starting to see a lot of skill bloat, the next expansion better have some skill/ability revisions, otherwise it's just going to be a mess.

[RiceisNice]

That said, while I don't remember hunter very well as it was a long time ago, I remember most classes had very very different feels depending on your main tree--and often fulfilled completely different party rolls (like shadow priests being DPS). So picking a marksman hunter was basically like playing a different, but related, class, compared to Beastmaster/Survival. And that's completely understandable.

However, I have to ask, did you pick your talents in the marksman tree based on which would be most effective?

My point was in regards to picking the specialization and the talents in general (which means I'm referring to playing a hunter post-cataclysm expansion, where they had already done away with the old talent trees). Even I agree that something like their pre-catacylsm talent trees were a bit outdated, because everyone always went for the same build. However, you still had some horizontal character progression and choices in the form of specializations (cataclysm and onward), and somewhat more limited in the talents themselves (which have undergone tremendous change) and glyph.

Had I played a hunter during WoD release, I would have taken something like exotic munitions to add as secondary effect to my ranged auto attacks. On the other hand, I believe that lone wolf was a better dps increase for marksman hunter, since EA didn't benefit from their mastery.

Also, for the record, when I played a WoW hunter last (aaaaaages ago, around the release of BC I think? Maybe?), a Marksman/survival hybrid was best if I remember right.

Like right here, we probably have two completely different perspectives. As I mentioned above, I was playing a marksman hunter during MoP, at that point they had done away with talent trees and specializations were more-or-less a "job route" for each class. Marksman has always been behind BM and SV as far as dps was concerned, but I still prefered using physical shots as my source of damage. Not enough of a difference to prevent htem from being able to clear the top tier content, mind you, just comparatively lower.

They've done away with a lot of fluff and pointless numbers (like 0/5 rank talents that give % damage increase), but still give some resembelence of horizontal progression. Sure there's going to be some that's better for the extra 2-5% dps, but I could always mess around with my talent points if I wanted to change my pacing for a dungeon, raid or dailies. I can't necessarily say that I have the same luxury on FFXIV when it comes to raiding due to gear being job specific...and the fact that my role is the "support dps" of MCH/BRD, the two having gameplay that's been homogenized as hell.

[Shurrikhan]

My point was in regards to picking the specialization and the talents in general (which means I'm referring to playing a hunter post-cataclysm expansion, where they had already done away with the old talent trees). Even I agree that something like their pre-catacylsm talent trees were a bit outdated, because everyone always went for the same build. However, you still had some horizontal character progression and choices in the form of specializations (cataclysm and onward), and somewhat more limited in the talents themselves (which have undergone tremendous change) and glyph.

Had I played a hunter during WoD release, I would have taken something like exotic munitions to add as secondary effect to my ranged auto attacks. On the other hand, I believe that lone wolf was a better dps increase for marksman hunter, since EA didn't benefit from their mastery.


Like right here, we probably have two completely different perspectives. As I mentioned above, I was playing a marksman hunter during MoP, at that point they had done away with talent trees and specializations were more-or-less a "job route" for each class. Marksman has always been behind BM and SV as far as dps was concerned, but I still prefered using physical shots as my source of damage. Not enough of a difference to prevent them from being able to clear the top tier content, mind you, just comparatively lower.

They've done away with a lot of fluff and pointless numbers (like 0/5 rank talents that give % damage increase), but still give some resembelence of horizontal progression. Sure there's going to be some that's better for the extra 2-5% dps, but I could always mess around with my talent points if I wanted to change my pacing for a dungeon, raid or dailies. I can't necessarily say that I have the same luxury on FFXIV when it comes to raiding due to gear being job specific...and the fact that my role is the "support dps" of MCH/BRD, the two having gameplay that's been homogenized as hell.

[Iirc, Focusing Shot had the best general dps, but Lone Wolf had the best 80-100% and Kill Shot % dps, especially with guaranteed Aimed Shot crits at the opening phase, often averaging out to greater gains if pure single-target. Easily within 2% in single-target unless movement killed Focusing Shots' usefulness, but potentially much larger bonuses from Focusing Shot if AoEing frequently. Munitions tended to lag behind each unless somehow (usually just in 5-mans), you could cover most of your AoE needs just though the Incendiary/Explosive ammo's AoE component while STing...

Moreover, the talent choices now are even more cookie-cutter in that they each have a near-direct relationship with certain fights or styles thereof and can be individually mixed and matched to the situation ("input"), where before the focus was on the class itself and its rotational dynamics (essentially "output"). If two talents now could perform equally well, there's all the more chance that two similar talent builds (whether Wrath or Cata) could have been even more equal in value, and allowed finer nuances. The change to the current was purely a decision made for development cost. (Even if you disregard said talent nuance / identity, the largest change is that we now carry stacks of 99 tomes so that we can swap our talents out for every fight as needed. Boss talents > Trash talents > Boss (2) talents > etc.])

On topic though: what I liked about those kind of choices was their gameplay differentiation, but at the same time, even talents as 'changing' as the Mists/WoD/Legion ones can go wrong, or provide little/few increased identity, options, or general entertainment. Moreover, at least in my opinion, the job would often be better done by something more subtle, such as the Wrath/Cata talents, that don't simply swap out a major button (e.g. Steady > Focusing, Eviscerate > DFA, TV > FV) but also affect those finer rotational priorities, and more importantly one's breadth of capability. More than the talents themselves, even, that's what I feel was gradually sapped out of WoW -- the versatility, the breadth, of the classes. Had we more dynamically usable abilities, or at least no button space wasted by duplicates like Inner Beast / Fell Cleave, or Whirling Thrust / Fang and Claw, or by abilities than do nothing more than buff a certain other ability (Power Surge), our sheer action count in XIV would practically guarantee that breadth. Not saying it has to, it just feels weird that we have this many actions, yet so few in-combat rotational builds available to us -- the number of options that we have regardless of spec. [Queue popped; will fix this rant later.]