Please be kind - Lowbie dungeon mini-rant

[Malicewolf]

The argument for DF giving reward as a purpose of rewarding helping new players is, in my opinion, not a very good argument. It may be the purpose of it, but it obviously doesn't work as intended. Telling someone they 'should' act in a way that they aren't isn't going to make them all of a sudden do that. You either need strict rules or rewards for the behaviour that you want.

The best way to go about this is rewarding behavior that you want. Unfortunately, the current system rewards the opposite. It provides the same reward despite the time taken, so naturally the best reward is for speed runs. If you really want to reward someone for helping out, add something similar to the commendation system only if you are new. Have it ask, rate the following player among "Did they go out of their way to help you learn this instance?" "Did they obstruct you from learning this instance?" If they say yes to the first, you get double the reward, if they say yes to the second you get 0 reward, if they say no to both you get normal rewards.

I fully agree with you on this part. The reward system doesn't support the intent. But it does not change the intent for the system being put in place. This is more so one of those community standards within the game that we created. It's ok to speed run because we don't require everyone in our team to be with us on some of these runs. Simply put, it creates a negative environment for the newbies.

As for your note on the healer, as a healer, I'd also find this frustrating. I can adapt as a healer to the size of pulls, and will fit in as much DPS as I think I can handle. I know what skills I have on CD (bene/lustrate for example) and can time your hp to go down as such. Some times this means I'll let your HP drop to 20%, but I won't let you die. This doesn't mean I can't handle a larger pull or don't want you to pull larger.

I expect healer's I know to edge me. I do not expect random healers in DF to try to edge me without prior notification. If they do, I will simply assume the worst and adjust my play style to match. Especially if said healer allows DPS's to drop. If I notice you upkeep everyone well, you seem to always have me when I hit 20% hp and you say you can handle more, then sure, I'll pull bigger mobs. But if you're quiet and don't give me any notification that you can handle it, I most definitely will not. As a tank my 1st priority, mindset wise, is the preservation of the party as a whole to get through the dungeon.

I guess our experiences differ. I never wipe as the result of a speed run, or I should say rarely. I've mostly wiped on bosses due to people not understanding or performing mechanics.

5 minutes on a 20 minute run is an extra 25%, this can add up to a lot when extrapolated upon a long grind. I'd say that my times vary a lot more than that though. I know we are mostly talking about leveling instances, but I'll give an example of Fractals. The longest run in Fractals (without wipes) that I have had is 45 minutes, and the shortest is 13 minutes. That is over 3x as long, and can make a huge difference.

As for everyone being up to par, I'd say you only need 2-3 up to par. A good healer and a good DPS can keep things going, the DPS will grab hate, but the healer will keep them alive long enough for the DPS to burn them down. I've seen speed runs with this sort of set up. That said, I agree that the more people who are capable, the better.

On a separate note, I'd like to add that I also like speed runs not just so that I can get my rewards faster. I find running a dungeon faster and pushing myself to be a lot more exhilarating and enjoyable. The content is quite stale when going slow by comparison. So it's, in part, just for my enjoy-ability of the content.

Well, I'm not going to say I wipe a lot during speed runs, but I also don't do speed runs unless I feel comfortable with the team (or sometimes I'll simply ask right off the bat and wait for answer). Some exceeded expectations, some more than failed. It's more so that when we start failing during speed runs, it's usually grueling because very seldom is it a 1 time fail. It's usually going to be a few. But AV is probably where this happens the most for me. I tend to get AV a lot on roulette unfortunately T_T

[Kaurie]

But if you're quiet and don't give me any notification that you can handle it, I most definitely will not. As a tank my 1st priority, mindset wise, is the preservation of the party as a whole to get through the dungeon.

Moral of the story, let's all communicate

[Twilite]

I just assume everyone isn't trying to spend 50 minutes in a dungeon.

[Kazumac]

My personal rules to not hate DF are as follows:
1. Make sure and ask if I want something done like a full clear.
2. Accept that majority rules and don't get upset if I'm out voted.

If I'm looking to really control my experience, I'll setup a run with friends/LS/FC.

[Klamor]

This right here is your problem Klamor. You don't understand the intent of Duty Roulette. You have an enhanced reward to compensate you for the time and effort need to help newer players through the leveling process. It's NOT your speed run, it is THEIR EXP run. Maybe you should not be a jerk about the EXP that they need because you miss your precious speed run? If you don't want to take the time to actually help, then run something else. You're not helping people by trampling them en route to your latest speed run.

I guess you missed the part where I stated I don't run leveling roulettes any more. I've been taking your advice to "run something else" for a while now. But, thanks for your opinion.

Also, as had been said before, the experience reward for killing mobs has been reduced and the boss' experience reward is increased. Tell me again how the extra time taken to kill trash, that could be used to kill more bosses, helps people level faster. Please, I'd love to hear it again.

You're also assuming I just told new players to go pack sand when they asked to kill everything; assuming they would even ask up-front, and didn't just stay silent until midway through the dungeon and then decide to bitch about skipping side rooms. If the party wanted more experience, I would generally oblige. We're not jerks just because we want to do things in the most efficient manner possible. Don't try to act like all of us cleared the entirety of every dungeon, every time we ran it, when we were leveling. I certainly didn't, but I was also coming out of the beta at a higher level than a lot of people were starting out.

[MeiUshu]

Doesn't matter if you've run something a million times. Not everyone has. You may run into someone who's running a dungeon for the FIRST time when it's your hundredth. That doesn't put the fault on the new player. I understand you NOT wanting to run every little crevice, but if it's that much of a hassle for you, then go get your FC mates to run the dungeon unsync'd with you instead of using the df.

Now I will say, I'll assume we're good to go for a speed run if I enter a dungeon and there is not "someone is new" notification. But if someone says something, I will always run the entire dungeon.

Speed runs depend much on the overall group. Whenever I am asked if I can handle speedruns, my answer is generally this one *i dont know, since i dont know you, so lets try and we will know* not a single speed run is the same as the prior speed run in the same place. People as a whole and not only one or two are responsible for the success or failure of a speed run. Is DPS fast? is the tank good at managing his own CDs and aggro ? are people as a whole sufficiently geared or have all their skills to face a speed run and etc etc etc....

just me though. I had a tank with ilvl 28 in Dzemael pull all the rooms.because he wanted a speed run...how long you think he lasted? it has to be said that tanks often misjudge their own capacity/ability to make a speed run BUT rarely do they set themselves into question is always either healer or dps fault.

I also met this kind of tank that I specifically TOLD I couldnt handle a speed run ebacuse I was well undergeared when I did the Aery back in time and I was well undergeared, guess what ? the tank in question rushed all the places all the mobs packs of mobs, I couldnt handle that at all, and wiped several times until i took the penalty. You might be an exception Malice, and I wished that people started using their brains and common sense rather then play the solo in a group attitude .

[Reisui]

This thread feels like the parser thread we had a couple of weeks ago.

Players wanting to play how they want. This will always create a them VS them.
People should speak up, and both should try and understand each other.

It's true, some of the veteran players like to rush (be it a tank, heal or DPS). I can understand it, but you can't blame them if no-one speaks up. And if you speak and they leave or kick you, so be it, better to not run a dungeon with someone that might be name-calling the entire dungeon.

Keep also in mind, that some of the veteran players, myself included tried to help a lot of players, but we got bad reactions, in the end, you don't always wan't to help others anymore. And before you say that I need to run the dungeons with my FC/friends, yeah true, that could help, and I do it a lot, but they are not always there, or I don't want to be a burden for them.

Also, what says that the new player will not become a speed runner himself in the future?

To conclude, jerks will be jerks (both on Veteran as Newbie side) and try to communicate.

[Azazua_azura]

No offence but at times people DO speak and are ignored. Like the case with what happen with me as a tank, the guy didn't give anyone a second to communicate, I would have explained the agro was accidental and am not pulling everything. People do need to stop blaming content for their attitudes. Mmo are known for being repetitive, forced or not. Content is Rarely 1 and done.

Also df is suppose to be all inclusive, dr is part of ff14 mentor thing, it suppose to reward people for running stuff. People just use it to farm. Thing is you can set up a party and run stuff, That is the purpose of it. If I recall correctly all Arr lvl 50 dungeons reward poetics, just form parties and farm them.

Consideration needs to go both ways, not just put blame on ppl not speaking up. In alot of cases people do speak up and are ignored, I even stepped up in my communication and at times it's awkward because it feels like people go "who cares" even got told off for "talking too much". All I did was ask what people wanted. And said why I was there and not to attack stuff I didn't pull (was tank) basic communication and most of the time I met with silence.

Like I said communication needs to become a thing... it makes the game way more fun if people work together. Getting very tired of "playing solo while in a group" and "does my own thing" mentality ff14 community is developing.


@ reisui

Thing is about the help is most people admit to forcing it. To truly help a person out it best if you offer to, ask if they want advice. If you give it out with out asking it is seen as an insult. People learn in many different ways based how their mind works, how their personality is and how they were raised.

For me I'd rather learn by doing, I'm up for advice if you ask me, as I'm pretty open for tips. Thing is I'm more a learn as I'm doing. Practice by doing, and people giving me room to learn. I don't like stuff forced on me, as it just causes me stress and anxiety (part of my autism). You also can't force a person to learn, if someone isn't playing well and giving a bad attitude and making your job/role much harder you are free to kick or leave.

Don't stop helping people over a few bad apples, that just generalizing.


@ speed runs

I wish people didn't force it, I wish thru didn't make it an expectation in df. Again part of my autism is anxiety, and another aspect is bad coordination. This really comes out when I'm stressed and having anxiety. Speed runs make me anxious due to having to be rushed, I personally make more mistakes doing speed runs then just pulling naturally. anti anxiety meds help as if mostly playing with my bf, but if I'm solo queing I personally don't feel comfortable speed running. I'll try if that is what the group wants but, all I ask is not be ragged on if I make mistakes.


If someone comes up and saying I'm using it as a cutch, I'm not. Explaining how a disability can effect you isn't using it as a cutch I never once played victim, and try to apologies for my mistakes.

Just to be clear, I've only been recently diagnosed and still coming to terms with it, and learning about it. Still learning ways to cope, and still learning ways to not have it be an issue to myself and others.

[Malicewolf]

You might be an exception Malice, and I wished that people started using their brains and common sense rather then play the solo in a group attitude .

Wait, I'm confused as to what I might the exception for? I am not someone who tries to speed run everything. I only do that after I look and see everyone is well overgeared for a dungeon and no "new player" notification pops. Then I'll ask. Otherwise, I always gauge the party in the first pull and increase from there if it seems to go real smooth. That may have gotten a bit confusing with the "I'll assume we're good" part in my quote.

But yes, I totally agree that speed runs are dependent on the party as a whole. What I was getting at was that it only takes 1 weak link for a speed run to turn into a "let's take twice as long due to wipes" run. If the DPS are the weak point, it's more likely that you'll be able to push through, but it'll still be a slow run due to the lack of burning. But if a tank or healer can't hold up with the speed run, it's pretty much certain you're going to wipe.

[Reisui]

No offence but at times people DO speak and are ignored. Like the case with what happen with me as a tank, the guy didn't give anyone a second to communicate, I would have explained the agro was accidental and am not pulling everything. People do need to stop blaming content for their attitudes. Mmo are known for being repetitive, forced or not. Content is Rarely 1 and done.

That's correct.
You had a jerk in your team, and I feel sorry for it.