Is it pointless to lvl Paladin?

[Donjo]

PLD enmity on RoH: 260 x 5 = 1040. Or 1354 with FoF up.
DRK enmity on PS: 300 x 5.5 = 1650. or 1897.5 with Darkside. DRK unbuffed PS beats PLD's "fully buffed" RoH.
WAR enmity on BB: 250 x 5.5 = 1375. 1650 with Maim, 2194.5 during Unchained, 2475 during zerk, and woopping 3291.75 during Unchain and Zerk.
Multiply all these numbers by 2.3 to know the total potency in tank stances.

Oh, hey, Phoenicia appeared again! Can't help but think that you've somehow shrunk, though...

Anyways, I'm gonna have to be that asshole and point out that the potency on Butcher's Block is 280.

/hides

[Reynhart]

Anyways, I'm gonna have to be that asshole and point out that the potency on Butcher's Block is 280.

We could also point that Berserk is not exactly +50% damage but +50% STR...but frankly, it wouldn't really change the point

[Donjo]

We could also point that Berserk is not exatcly +50% damage but +50% STR...but frankly, it wouldn't really change the point

The potency of Butcher's Block is a far more important point than Berserk, as the number she fat-fingered causes direct contradictions with the point that a Warrior's Tanking Rotation optimally alternates between Butcher's Block and a Storm. Thinking of Berserk as +50% damage is close enough, so using it makes math easier while not throwing things off in any significant manner.

Also, Spell Check.

[Reynhart]

The potency of Butcher's Block is a far more important point than Berserk, as the number she fat-fingered causes direct contradictions with the point that a Warrior's Tanking Rotation optimally alternates between Butcher's Block and a Storm.

The point was mainly to prove that PLD is far behind when it comes to building enmity, and still works with a sligthly lower BB. So, correcting the potency will only increase the gap.

[keroo]

One thing most people that fails to understand is, during raids, you're a tank. You do the tanking and DMG just comes next with it when it requires you to. At certain cases it is.

Guess what? As of this current high-end content, you can always modify your stats, experiment with your STR and VIT stats, have some pentamelds if you afford to and want to. The most USEFUL utility you will have as a Paladin is Hallowed Ground, that utility is freaking OP when it comes to mitigation. You receive no damage at all, it gives your raid team 10 seconds to have space on heals. That, if you compare to other tanks, they needed to get healed otherwise they'll be lying on the floor.

For every raid content, there will be required eHP for us tanks, hit the effective HP threshold and spend the remaining attributes to STR if you want invest on DPS and enmity.
If you do the Main Tanking on the raid, you mostly have the damage penalty debuff on your tank stance. That means, no matter how you try hard or push through, your DPS output will always be low(given to the extent that you're an ordinary raider that you don't want to push to the limits of team core skills[skillful healing, tanking off-stance, defensive cd management])

Now, people will argue about "contributing DPS" will make the raid easier. Yes it is, but the difference is mostly low since, again, you're on tank-stance. Your DPS team can always do their best to achieve better DPS output, coz' you know, some players won't even reach the DPS threshold on some raids because they're aren't skillful enough to do so.

This game is not hack n' slash. You do the mechanics based on your role. One wrong move, you dead.

[Donjo]

The point was mainly to prove that PLD is far behind when it comes to building enmity, and still works with a sligthly lower BB. So, correcting the potency will only increase the gap.

Ugh. Of course you would say this. Now that Nektulos appears to have absconded, you are the current king of trying to use false data to make points that would be proven more easily with accurate data.

We owe it to both ourselves and all who come to read these threads to be as accurate as is possible, no matter how small the point. The full breadth of issues like this simply cannot be properly comprehended unless the most relevant numbers are correct. In the case of our enmity values here, the base potencies of the combo enders are the most important numbers in the equations.

To swing this back to the topic at hand, OP, don't worry too much about this math proving PLD enmity generation to be the lowest of the Tanks. The fact of the matter is that they most definitely produce enough enmity to keep monsters hitting them. Just like Phoenicia said, it doesn't really matter how much enmity you're producing as long as the only people who can out-threat you are other Tanks. We just have a situation where Paladins produce "enough" enmity, Warriors produce far more enmity than they need, and Dark Knights are deliberately constructed to have to use their enmity combo very infrequently.

[Isius]

I still would like to see a enmity buff for Pld in the future, personally. The faster Pld can produce enmity, the faster Pld can go into Sword Oath to meet the current meta requirements of tank dps in the raid scene. But at the same time enmity isn't really taxed if you are a casual player that plans to not really raid.

Pld is still a solid tank, and does have powerful tools, and is the most effective tank needing less outside influence. HG is great, you can use it in casual content easily. There is a big difference on negating all dmg, versus not dying in x amount of time. You can just pull everything and pop HG, and chill for 10secs. Clemancy is also great for casual content too. It's just Pld's performance is less then ideal where it's kit does start to conflict with itself against the endgame meta. Where you are told dps only matters. Spells eat into dmg you could be doing, and spells might get interrupted while mting. You have the lowest tank aggro, so you do need ninja as a buddy to help you out if you try to produce more dps in Sword Oath more versus the other tanks if you are serious about trying to max out your dps while mting in a raid enviroment, and of course Pld is 3rd on tank dps versus the other tanks regardless.

I would like to see buffs in 3.2, so me as a Pld player feels like I can genuinely offer a little bit more, then I can now to my raid group.

[Syzygian]

Pld is still a solid tank, and does have powerful tools, and is the most effective tank needing less outside influence.

Actually WAR is, sadly. You can eat a tankbuster in Deliverance with Holmgang which has under half the recast of Hallowed Ground, toggle to Defiance and then zerk+SW/ToB and/or Equilibrium yourself back up (the latter on a fucking 60 SECOND RECAST, WAT) without healers even touching you. This entire scenario is something you can pull off once every 3 minutes without even touching 90% of your defensive cooldowns (Vengeance, IB, RI, etc).

Don't say its overpowered though. Oh man, will people salt your onions for that. WAR's deserve all this power b/c they're the best designed job b/c they're so good b/c they're the best designed because because because idk Fell Cleave something-or-other.

[Isius]

Actually WAR is, sadly. You can eat a tankbuster in Deliverance with Holmgang which has under half the recast of Hallowed Ground, toggle to Defiance and then zerk+SW/ToB and/or Equilibrium yourself back up (the latter on a fucking 60 SECOND RECAST, WAT) without healers even touching you. This entire scenario is something you can pull off once every 3 minutes without even touching 90% of your defensive cooldowns (Vengeance, IB, RI, etc).

Don't say its overpowered though. Oh man, will people salt your onions for that. WAR's deserve all this power b/c they're the best designed job b/c they're so good b/c they're the best designed because because because idk Fell Cleave something-or-other.

I am talking more about Pld in a casual environment being good, or in casual groups.

Personally, I am tired of all this negative feedback all the time on Pld. I got myself involved and added to it aswell on the forums, but geesh I am tired of it. We all know Warrior is the best tank when played right, and out performs the other tanks. I alt the stupid thing because it's a better ot, than Pld in endgame. But I hate playing War, doesn't fit my play style at all. So in other content, I play my Pld, and I will always gear my Pld first over my War even if Pld is weaker to the masses in this games current meta. I see the strengths of my class, and will not bash it's strengths as if they were weak, or broken. I am done cross examining my class down in every detail, and hearing/adding to cry/rant how unfair it is on the forums. I am done with that. It is unfair, but it is how it is. I know Pld is weak in the current raids, and might remain in future raids. Yoshi-P does need to get off his high-horse about the issue, and see it as a issue that needs to be addressed. But for everyone else to constantly tell me Pld is sucks...it's very old, and tired of feeling like crap for preferring to play Pld over War...because that is the only choice I have, since my co-tank is a Dark Knight, which is basically let's face it a redesigned, and upgraded version of Pld with a more active play style, minus shields/heavier physical mitigation. I would have probably swapped to Drk, but whelp can't co-tank is Drk so I got stuck with a weak 3.0 Pld in raid, or play a War, which I left as a tank player back in 2.1 because I didn't like the redesign.

Really? How would you feel if you read, "Is it worth it to lvl Pld?" As a Pld player, because of all the negative feedback the class received because of Alexander Savage. The class does need buffs to compete better in endgame, but it is also not a as worthless as the current vibe the community is leading it off to be. AND I SAID POWERFUL TOOLS, NOT OVERPOWERED. There is a difference. HG is a press this button and forgot, unlike Holmgang, and Clemancy is very useful in lower tier content. Equilbrium is a greed heal, and only helps Warrior, while Clemancy is useful for whoever in lower content.

Does War need nerfs...sure because the way the game is going it might be War/War in 3.2 raids. Happy. Because I am not.

*Sorry misread, and got into a rant in my head Syzygain. :/ This is issue about tank balance is just very old to me, as I said several times already.

[Februs]

You are correct, you got this very wrong. Correcting the math

Hey, there we go. I knew someone would post the math to straighten this out, which is nice because I can never remember the exact hate values of the three Tanks. Though someone already pointed out some incorrect values. Regardless, the point is the same, and it helps bring some clarity to the discussion.

I'm not overly concerned with Drk's values in regards to the point we were discussing, since Drk was not around at the time in question. That job didn't exist during lvl cap runs at 50, and I still distinguish those from sync'd lvl 50 runs because gear/stat allocations have shifted a bit since then, even with sync'd values, and most tanks were running almost identical rigs before 3.0 came out (with progression raiders having a slightly different kit). However the math still leaves a bit of a mystery in regards to Pld threat generation back in the day.

It's not important now, given the days of the lvl 50 cap are done and dead, but I do clearly remember instances in which Pld's were stealing hate using SwO. I got griped at myself a few times for hate theft despite sitting pretty in SwO, and I even remember a few forum posts complaining about it back in the day (usually in regards to Pld complaints over low dmg). Given the math, though, I would have thought it should have been impossible, so it's still kind of weird that it was happening given that Pld's very clearly have substantially lower threat gen... Guess I can just chalk it up to most War's not knowing how to actually use their job correctly...?