starting to lose interest in this game sadly

[Mancub22]

This game already has a pay to win feature. If being able to buy more retainers isn't pay to win I don't know what is.

[Felis]

This game already has a pay to win feature. If being able to buy more retainers isn't pay to win I don't know what is.

But at the same time you can have 16 retainers on the same server without paying for a single one. It only need a bit organization, a FC safe and maybe a house.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

This game already has a pay to win feature. If being able to buy more retainers isn't pay to win I don't know what is.

Not really. I know plenty of people who get by as crafters while still only have two retainers. You can also play through the entire story quest without ever once leveling a craft and you'll have more than enough gil to keep yourself adequately geared. Extra retainers simply allow for easier omnicrafting or storage if you decide to later level multiple jobs or fancy hoarding gear. Conversely, you could make alt characters and have extra retainers free of charge. It's just inconvenient, which is what you're actually paying extra for: convenience.

[Jynx]

Extra retainers simply allow for easier omnicrafting or storage.

In practice this is far from the case, ventures have proven to be a very lucrative market allowing players to amass astounding ammounts of gil in a short period of time due to the extra services they receive with multiple retainers.

Retainers make earning gil easier than without them, it can be construed as paying real money for more spending power ingame.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

In practice this is far from the case, ventures have proven to be a very lucrative market allowing players to amass astounding ammounts of gil in a short period of time due to the extra services they receive with multiple retainers.

Retainers make earning gil easier than without them, it can be construed as paying real money for more spending power ingame.

None of which is a reliable alternative. It also requires a minimum of one hour or upwards of eighteen. You can clear dungeons in less time, which then boils down to who gets luckier. That said, I don't particularly like how they're handling retainers. The fact we have yet to get another one or see them improve the armoire despite a wealth of new items sucks. But I wouldn't associate it with a pay to win model. To me, that is a system that would allow players to buy experience or Relic weapons.

[Jynx]

None of which is a reliable alternative. It also requires a minimum of one hour or upwards of eighteen.

Retainers aren't a "Reliable" alertnative to making gil? Could have fooled me.

To curb the Pay to Win argument they could easilly remove the ventures from all but your main two retainers and have them act as just extra storage space. Then you would have a service that gives you no real game changing value, but as they stand they can be a powerfull tool. Hell some ventures can yeild up to 25k an hour for doing nothing all the while being free to do all that "Other stuff" you listed. Why farm just dungeons when you can farm dungeons and send retainers out?

[Bourne_Endeavor]

I'll concede to you both. That is a fair argument. While I don't necessarily have a huge issue with extra retainers myself, I'll admit it does lead to indirect gil buying. Suppose the biggest problem I have is whenever the devs claim to not have enough memory/server space for additional free storage, yet charge for retainers.

[Iagainsti]

Retainers aren't a "Reliable" alertnative to making gil? Could have fooled me.

While I do agree that having 3 retainers bringing me back 45 titanium ore an hour makes me more gil, but the real benefit lies in freeing up my gametime to do other things than mine titanium ore. You're Pay 2 Win theory by having more retainers is unsubstantial due to all actual progress items(DoW/DoM/DoH/Dol) are locked behind duties, tomes and scrips; items that cannot be bought with gil; and even when we consider that you can use gil to buy off the MB materials needed to craft for red scrips, you're paying for the convenience and time management, since you can technically go gather these mats yourself. The Pay 2 Win system you are trying to paint retainer ventures into does not exist, especially when you believe 25k an hour is a large sum of gil as per your example.

Even if we were to say that a player who did nothing but craft, had 6 retainers pumping the ventures, and bought/crafted all his own gear and pentamelded it perfectly, spending millions in gil to achieve......i185? This cat can't even get into Thordan Ex, and you've surpassed him in Ilvl by a margin doing roulettes for free. I see no Pay 2 Win scheme here.

[Colorful]

None of which is a reliable alternative. It also requires a minimum of one hour or upwards of eighteen. You can clear dungeons in less time, which then boils down to who gets luckier. That said, I don't particularly like how they're handling retainers. The fact we have yet to get another one or see them improve the armoire despite a wealth of new items sucks. But I wouldn't associate it with a pay to win model. To me, that is a system that would allow players to buy experience or Relic weapons.

Selling gil through a gambling system in which you have a chance to win either 1-1,000,000 gil every hour wouldn't be reliable, but it would undeniably be buying gil. Buying gil isn't pay to win in FFXIV (good thing too), but there's no denying that you have the ability to indirectly buy gil from SE and ventures aren't exactly difficult to come by.