Regarding the Localization of Haurchefant in the EN/FR/DE Versions of FFXIV

[Cidel]

No they weren't. Plenty of us understood them just fine and tried to tell those of you who somehow didn't get it just what was being said, starting from day one.

Oh, here it is- the haughty "we (somehow) managed to read between the (nonexistent) lines" argument about how Midgarsormr's localization left nothing out, that usually creeps its way into these localization spats. When the NA and JP versions have been extensively compared and shown, line-by-line, exactly what the NA version omits, here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ersus_english/

And no, I realize that the same person is not responsible for these two instances (Midgarsormr/Haurchefant), and I don't feel the need to elaborate any more on the English representation of Haurche aside from the comment Brannigan dropped on the 1st page, but I find it ridiculous that people can claim to know the same details from NA Midgar's dialogue just as it is said in the JP's. That's almost as absurd as anyone claiming that they got the same "loveable debauchee" vibe on the same level as the JP's Haurchefant representation from the NA's localization.

More on-topic though, I don't think there's much left to discuss about Haucherfant's localization. Somebody had to apologize, so clearly something erroneous enough was committed.

[Viridiana]

When the NA and JP versions have been extensively compared and shown, line-by-line, exactly what the NA version omits, here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ersus_english/

And I'll offer the same challenge I always have. Show me anything in the fan translation and I'll show you where it is in the official translation, with very few exceptions.

But yeah, for Haurchefant I've freely admitted that I didn't really like the 2.0 translation because I think it went too far. But when someone in charge comes forward and apologizes and demonstrates that they're working to prevent similar issues in the future, that's not the time to slam them like some of the people are doing here.

[Cidel]

But when someone in charge comes forward and apologizes and demonstrates that they're working to prevent similar issues in the future, that's not the time to slam them like some of the people are doing here.

Agreed, some comments really are lacking tact towards someone who already apologized.

[Tenkuu]

And I'll offer the same challenge I always have. Show me anything in the fan translation and I'll show you where it is in the official translation, with very few exceptions.

This is a really easy claim to make after the fact, when you now know what was actually said in the japanese version.

But yeah, for Haurchefant I've freely admitted that I didn't really like the 2.0 translation because I think it went too far. But when someone in charge comes forward and apologizes and demonstrates that they're working to prevent similar issues in the future, that's not the time to slam them like some of the people are doing here.

Don't misunderstand, I was just pointing out what made it a faulty translation, not attacking anybody, and encouraging them to do better and even to rework the translations we already have if it's a possibility. I don't see why this should be impossible, and if they told us they would do it but it would take time, I would honestly wait however long it took to get actually accurate translations.

[Viridiana]

Replying to your points slightly out of order:

Don't misunderstand, I was just pointing out what made it a faulty translation, not attacking anybody, and encouraging them to do better and even to rework the translations we already have if it's a possibility.

I get that, and if I come across as hostile towards you it's because I'm very sarcastic, and sarcasm doesn't work well in text. So sorry if I come across as ruder than I intend. That said, the people I was replying to before you addressed me were definitely being very hostile to Corvi, and I don't think that's appropriate when he's coming forward to apologize. Now on to your main points:

As Cidel said, nope. Midgarsormr's intent in and of itself was completely different in the english version, he came off as almost malevolent and to many people, as just generally being a jackass.

This is a really easy claim to make after the fact, when you now know what was actually said in the japanese version.

I never got a malevolent vibe from him, and I know some other posters here feel the same way. As for the timeliness of my claim, my post history in the forum is publicly available. You can search for my posts at the time of 2.5 and see that I was saying much the same thing then. If you'd really like, I might even got bored and search for them myself.

Actually, everything I've read about the french version implies that regardless of his tone, his lines were still more accurate than in the english version. The french versions of even anime are actually very good at translations most of the time; it's the voices they choose that tend to make you cringe.

Possibly. I freely admit that I only have Corvi's statement in the OP to go on here, as I don't really talk to any FR players, I don't think. And we're agreed that 2.0 Haurchefant was going toned down too far in EN, so I wouldn't be surprised if the other languages were less toned down. But the fact remains that they were toned down because their respective Loc teams were concerned about player reaction.

We're talking about who the english version is very clearly catering to.

I don't think it's fair to place it all on the EN community. It'd be one thing if only the EN team toned down Haurchefant, or if it was done over objections of the other teams or something. But the three non-JP teams all got together and agreed (without approval, sadly) that he needed to be toned down. Unless you'd like to argue that the FR and DE teams are trying to cater to the NA market somehow?

I'm sorry, do you not know Thancred or something? He's the guy who, in a very early 2.0 Echo cutscene, is seen flirting with two women at the same time. He's also the same guy who, ever since 1.0, has been known to lavish countless women of all races with flowers and compliments. Also, nothing was "added in", it's content that was created in all versions at the same time and about which they just happened to make the decision to translate it right this time around.

Well, I meant "added in" as in "added to the game as a whole." That is, by the time the postmoogle quests and Thancred's disaster were coded, written, and translated, I think the Loc team had already realized their mistakes. I admit my earlier phrasing was unclear, though.

As for Thancred (and Longhaft) in general I think it generally comes down to the difference between things happening to NPCs versus to the PC. You're right that both these NPCs have reputations as a womanizer or a walking double entendre, but neither of them are really directed at the player character. I mean, most people laugh off Thancred's passes, but some people get upset at Longhaft's shtick. And the response to the Horse year Heavensturn event was...mixed. If their goal with the 2.0 quests was to minimize the people offended by Haurchefant's character, I can totally understand why they made the changes (again, went too far, though).

You just made a fool of yourself while proving my point. Corvinoobus explained what Haurchefant's character was meant to be received as, and you quoted my example of a trope that as a result of those intentions, was *not* used. Nice job tripping over your own feet there.

But...that's exactly my point. They chose not to use a trope because it's not something a NA audience would readily associate with heroes and allies. Unless you're saying that I was wrong when I said the trope didn't come up much outside of JP? If so, I'd say it depends how narrowly you define the trope. If the trope is just "lech/debauchee," then sure, it exists outside Japan. If it's supposed to be "ally who's a lech and hits on you hard," then I'm not so sure about its existence outside Japanese works. Granted, my overall knowledge of trope prevalence is far from extensive, so I'll concede the point about its prevalence; but the point about choosing not to use it still stands, I think.

[Tenkuu]

I never got a malevolent vibe from him, and I know some other posters here feel the same way. As for the timeliness of my claim, my post history in the forum is publicly available. You can search for my posts at the time of 2.5 and see that I was saying much the same thing then. If you'd really like, I might even got bored and search for them myself.

Malevolent is not exactly the right term, but more like he could not give two shits what happened to you or your friends. I know some people who think he came off sounding downright asinine at Moenbryda's funeral, when really in the original he is making a mostly unrelated observation about Nidhogg being on the move.

Possibly. I freely admit that I only have Corvi's statement in the OP to go on here, as I don't really talk to any FR players, I don't think. And we're agreed that 2.0 Haurchefant was going toned down too far in EN, so I wouldn't be surprised if the other languages were less toned down. But the fact remains that they were toned down because their respective Loc teams were concerned about player reaction.

The french version's tone may have been toned down, but as far as I know, dialogue remained accurate.

I don't think it's fair to place it all on the EN community. It'd be one thing if only the EN team toned down Haurchefant, or if it was done over objections of the other teams or something. But the three non-JP teams all got together and agreed (without approval, sadly) that he needed to be toned down. Unless you'd like to argue that the FR and DE teams are trying to cater to the NA market somehow?

I think you probably didn't catch the undertones in what I was saying, which is that the english version is obviously catering to Americans with all of the Americanization and general dumbing down of lines. And from everything I've heard, btw, yes, the english version *is* the single worst version in terms of accurate translations. Which is what I was referring to more than anything specifically Haurchefant related. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

Well, I meant "added in" as in "added to the game as a whole." That is, by the time the postmoogle quests and Thancred's disaster were coded, written, and translated, I think the Loc team had already realized their mistakes. I admit my earlier phrasing was unclear, though.

As for Thancred (and Longhaft) in general I think it generally comes down to the difference between things happening to NPCs versus to the PC. You're right that both these NPCs have reputations as a womanizer or a walking double entendre, but neither of them are really directed at the player character. I mean, most people laugh off Thancred's passes, but some people get upset at Longhaft's shtick. And the response to the Horse year Heavensturn event was...mixed. If their goal with the 2.0 quests was to minimize the people offended by Haurchefant's character, I can totally understand why they made the changes (again, went too far, though).

The changes would be understandable, except that we're playing a japanese game here. Oh sure it has international appeal and was made with all sorts of audiences in mind, but the japanese stereotypes still remain and are what fans who play this game over others look for. No one can honestly claim to not have known what they were getting themselves into when they come upon such scenes. And while Longhaft may be a particular sort of pervert, Thancred's flirtations are nothing that special since he is essentially the ladies' man archetype.

But...that's exactly my point. They chose not to use a trope because it's not something a NA audience would readily associate with heroes and allies. Unless you're saying that I was wrong when I said the trope didn't come up much outside of JP? If so, I'd say it depends how narrowly you define the trope. If the trope is just "lech/debauchee," then sure, it exists outside Japan. If it's supposed to be "ally who's a lech and hits on you hard," then I'm not so sure about its existence outside Japanese works. Granted, my overall knowledge of trope prevalence is far from extensive, so I'll concede the point about its prevalence; but the point about choosing not to use it still stands, I think.

I know what you mean now, but given the rest of your response, that honestly made no sense to quote, since you were talking about changes to Haurchefant's character to revert him to being more like his japanese self. It was just weird to see a quote of a trope that wasn't being used. Not that we didn't see it being used aplenty with Ilberd, imo.

[Viridiana]

The changes would be understandable, except that we're playing a japanese game here. Oh sure it has international appeal and was made with all sorts of audiences in mind, but the japanese stereotypes still remain and are what fans who play this game over others look for. No one can honestly claim to not have known what they were getting themselves into when they come upon such scenes. And while Longhaft may be a particular sort of pervert, Thancred's flirtations are nothing that special since he is essentially the ladies' man archetype.

I dunno. Like I said, the reaction to the horse Heavensturn event was pretty mixed from what I remember. Some people were outright calling Haurchefant's actions there sexual harassment on the forums. If that's how he'd been characterized from the get-go, how many players would have been repulsed from a character they're supposed to like?

[Tenkuu]

And no, I realize that the same person is not responsible for these two instances (Midgarsormr/Haurchefant), and I don't feel the need to elaborate any more on the English representation of Haurche aside from the comment Brannigan dropped on the 1st page, but I find it ridiculous that people can claim to know the same details from NA Midgar's dialogue just as it is said in the JP's. That's almost as absurd as anyone claiming that they got the same "loveable debauchee" vibe on the same level as the JP's Haurchefant representation from the NA's localization.

There is nothing wrong with wanting accurate translations and stating why the ones that we got instead were faulty. This wasn't a message addressed at any individual translator, but rather generally at the translation team: the message to please make a better effort and even to rework the already translated stuff to make it more accurate if there's any possibility of doing so. I would absolutely love to have a 2.0 and 3.0 translation of a quality that's on par with the 1.0 translations. And no, localization is never an excuse for bad translations, it's just a lazy job. Corvinoobus did apologize for messing it up, and this shouldn't be ruined by people who will just pat anyone on the back regardless of whether a job was well or badly done. This was a bad job, it was acknowledged as such, and we should be encouraging them to do better rather than insisting that the bad translations are fine the way they are.