Paladin Parity Suggestion Package

[Shurrikhan]

The only issue i can perceive is that this would give paladin enormous resource management for aoe dps, well beyond warrior or dark Knight. They would be dealing suitable aoe dps with single target tp consumption with the proposed changes. It would allow pld to spam aoe dps for a much longer period of time - - nearly indefinitely if they had a bard, mch or ast helping with tp regen. It is almost as unfair as scholar is to whm and ast. Both other healers are nerfed in aoe (holy/grav damage scaling and huge mp costs) while scholar only casts single target dots for very little mp (i think all 3 dots + shadowflare are almost equal in cost to about one holy) , then spreads them to all targets free of charge. This makes scholar vastly superior in aoe damage cuz it can do it forever, nearly. Pld would be in the same place with just a LITTLE bit of help.

And this is exactly the feedback I was looking for. TP issues, due to thinking my PLD the reining king of such already (though not to the point that I felt it needed addressing outside of improved spell usability), are something I overlooked entirely...
Ideally I would honestly like PLD's sustained AoE to have a bit more sustain than the others, but since this level of AoE currently comes free to them, the alternative being I charge them a portion of the TP cost per extra enemy hit, such that it (nearly) matches that of Overpower just beyond the potency equilibrium point of the two (rather than at, since it'll be inferior to Overpower beyond that point).

For example, I could simply make it...
"Sword Oath has been revised to increase the potency of all weaponskills and abilities by 25, and causes weaponskills to cleave nearby enemies for 25% damage at 25% higher TP cost per enemy hit (to a maximum of +100% TP cost)." At that point a combo cleaving 4 enemies would cost an average of ~130 TP (well, 126.7). It would still faintly outdo WAR/DRK in small cleave situations, while falling behind in large AoEs, but wouldn't have comparatively infinite TP by any means (actually, quite a bit worse than WAR, given WAR's Equilibrium). I'd prefer it to be a bit lower, however, since I don't want to put any PLD into a situation where he feels he needs to actually drop Sword Oath just for his TP, nor do I presently want to adjust potencies to decrease MT dps gap without anything Shield-ish involved and make Sword Oath just a cleave stance. 20% additional TP cost per enemy may be preferable, since Fast Blade already screws with my nicely rounded numbers anyways. (20% at least causes all integers, whereas 25% makes a 17.5 TP Fast Blade.)

Damn, I'm a little stumped.

[Februs]

Damn, I'm a little stumped.

I hate to add to your ... um... Stumpiness? But wouldn't this also cause a problem with increasing returns in Pld AoE dps over greater amounts of mobs?

I'm a little tired (and had a few to drink), so it's possible that I'm completely misunderstanding your math and combo ideas, but if Pld had reduced issues with TP consumption and could sustain Sword Oath AoE rotations for a prolonged period of time (like an entire pull), wouldn't this actually unbalance Pld in mass pull situations? You wrote examples for 2 -5 mobs... but I'm thinking more along the lines of 10 or more. I know that sounds excessive, but in treasure hunts and older dungeons it's not out of the question (ie: it isn't uncommon for a tank to pull everything in between the start to the first door in the Lost City of Amdapor, cuz' why not?).

If I'm not reading your post incorrectly, having Sword Oath turn Pld combos into AoE cleaves would give Pld's the ability to almost indefinitely sustain AoE's against mass mob pulls, especially over the increased Tp and Mp costs of War and Dark respectively. Whereas the dmg potency would be comparable to War and Drk AoE's, Pld's would have an advantage of basically having no limit to how many AoE's they could generate in a pull, meaning near infinite enmity stemming from an escalating dmg output that would eventually overcome Drk's and War's by sheer frequency (over a prolonged pull of very large size).

The Tp restriction you put in the last post would essentially stomp on this... but wouldn't that just provide the exact opposite problem? A Pld would basically be forced out of their Dps stance for the sake of Tp conservation, especially without any true means of actively restoring it. This would just put Wars and Drks back in their spots of supremacy for Mob tanking, leaving Pld behind... It seems that one method gives Plds a (potentially, depending on pull size and tp substantially) much higher Dps ceiling than the other two tanks, where as the other method shackles a Pld to their Tanking Oath for the sake of Tp conservation (which really isn't so different from the way things are now, I guess)... Like I said, I don't know if I'm truly picking up what you're putting down here, so I'm honestly curious about this.

[Brannigan]

I think a lot of this stuff is pretty pie-in-the-sky, especially the stuff like toggling on/off cover during its duration and half-casting Clemency, so I don't have a lot to say EXCEPT:

If you want to make crossclass potency based spells worth ANYTHING on ANY melee, you need to start with the magic damage on their weapons. Mind would improve our Cure a tiny bit, but a Gordian sword would still have the magic damage of an ilvl 55 conjurer weapon.

[Shurrikhan]

I hate to add to your ... um... Stumpiness? But wouldn't this also cause a problem with increasing returns in Pld AoE dps over greater amounts of mobs?

It seems that one method gives Plds a (potentially, depending on pull size and tp substantially) much higher Dps ceiling than the other two tanks, where as the other method shackles a Pld to their Tanking Oath for the sake of Tp conservation (which really isn't so different from the way things are now, I guess)... Like I said, I don't know if I'm truly picking up what you're putting down here, so I'm honestly curious about this.

[In reference to the post-edit version of Sword Oath cleave]

Dw about my stumpiness; any feedback is helpful, even if much now goes over my head.

And you're picking it up just fine. Pretty tired myself, but just not to the point where I can actually sleep, hence my being here revising shit with half a brain...

There's definitely an issue with attached cleave when starving for TP (especially if you need damage/enmity on just one enemy in particular). With the 20% TP cost increase per enemy cleaved, to a maximum of double cost, it'd be hitting 5 mobs by the time it costs as much as Overpower. Overpower would however deal more damage by the time they're each hitting 4 mobs. However, in situations like A2(N/S) where the cleave would come into near constant use, you'd be looking at next to double TP consumption the whole time, much like if the Warrior only ever used Overpower... PLD would only be able to outperform (in every way) DRK and (in raw damage, slightly, assuming Triple-Decimate Zerks every other Zerk) WAR in a 2-3-enemy OT situation, while remaining inferior after that. They're doing decent AoE, rather than 0, but still... Damn.

I mean, speaking of coding issues, I could make an embedded toggle, where you toggle the cleave on/off instead of leaving Sword Oath. You enter Sword Oath and next recast activates Sword Oath's cleave (hit again to deactivate cleave, rather than deactivating Sword Oath). Shield Oath would still have reasons to be dropped slightly early (if you wanted to finish a combo for full damage before popping Sword Oath), but there is 0 advantage to dropping Sword Oath early, after all.

It's kind of like a similar coding disaster I've always wanted to see, two-stage cooldowns, abilities that you can add cooldown time to while they're already cooling for greater effects within, say, 3 seconds of activating a more basic component of the ability. For example, lets' say you had a Holmgang stage 1 (which pulls the enemy to you and leashes the mob to you at a 1 minute CD), and stage 2 (pulls all the way to you one more time and performs the rest of the typical Holmgang function, but adds 2 minutes CD time).
I think I saw an suggested example like this before for Thrill of Battle, using a 2 minute CD if used only personally, or a 4-minute CD if made party-wide??

[MrTherm]

Skimmed thru. Tons of complex chanhes that are not needed. Simply adjusting Shield Swipe, Spirits and/or circle to bypass shield oath damage down would prove great for MT dps increase. Adding in an effect to sword Oath that increases auto attack attack speed with skill speed would also go a long way towards OT dps increase. They could also bring back determination to effect auto attacks under sword oath for another easy increase. Also remove the potency varies with HP effect on spirits. Two(ish) very very simple changes that would be easy to code and not require a total overhaul. The only hard part would be the math on the SS and/or det increase on auto attacks as to not make then to powerful.

[Fue]

What ive observed since 2.1 when warriors got buffed till now is that the real problem with pld is the skill that actually makes their dps competitive. Sword Oath.
Its just way too big difference between the oaths.
Just making Sword Oath into a trait or removing it and balancing the other skill potencies would pretty much close the gap there is while MT.
Cause thats where the problem lies.

I don't really agree making SwO into an even more desirable stance to prioritize.

[The_NPC]

I think PLD just needs some basic fix's, as I only really have trouble with overgeared DPS or equal/over geared DRK/WAR's.

Those "Fix's" I think should be: A) something to give TP regen when used, like a 5sec buff with "shield swipe" that gives 20tp a tick...or every hit made while buffed by "Fight or Flight" gives back 5-10TP

B) a buff to Arrgo/Eminty generation while eather using "Shield Oath" or a skill you'd only use while actually Tanking like as stated already "Flash" actually getting a buff from FoF

& C) situational skills get some flexability like "Clemency" gains "Surecast" effect as someone stated once, Cross-classing "Cure" now uses you're Vit instead of Mind & "Divine Veal" can now be set off by any heal

[matt8107t]

If I was going to change pld personally I would. Add a tiny amount of enmity to rage. I would add a tiny amount of damage to flash maybe like 10 potency. Change divine viel to be activated by heals or clemency and have it shield the user and the party. Then change clemency to be an instant cast with a CD that would make it not too overpowered. Maybe last make shield swipe usuable in sword oath without a block but maybe double or triple the CD time when in sword oath.

[Syzygian]

If I was going to change pld personally I would. Add a tiny amount of enmity to rage. I would add a tiny amount of damage to flash maybe like 10 potency. Change divine viel to be activated by heals or clemency and have it shield the user and the party. Then change clemency to be an instant cast with a CD that would make it not too overpowered. Maybe last make shield swipe usuable in sword oath without a block but maybe double or triple the CD time when in sword oath.

PLD's enmity needs a complete retooling and I would argue is possibly even the most vital and important fix they could do. After all enmity is the foundation of tanking. It has the lowest DPS AND the lowest enmity modifiers? Cmon now. This was fine back when all they did was RoH spam but now its borderline unacceptable. And now, the tank with the highest MT DPS (DRK) also has... you guessed it, the highest enmity modifiers. Hmm...

Aside from that, I don't agree with 90% of the changes in the OP. SwO is one of the few things that doesn't need fixing in PLD's toolkit. Its very powerful, and provides the biggest boost of all OT stances (even though its overall DPS still lags behind because its potencies/offensive cooldowns are so subpar).

[Shurrikhan]

Just going to compile my recent responses all here:

Aside from that, I don't agree with 90% of the changes in the OP. SwO is one of the few things that doesn't need fixing in PLD's toolkit. Its very powerful, and provides the biggest boost of all OT stances (even though its overall DPS still lags behind because its potencies/offensive cooldowns are so subpar).

For me, the change to Sword Oath was originally just a small, opportunistic adjustment. Instead of +50 potency per auto-attack (which causes a variance of ~3% OT dps just based on weapon speed), I found that adding 25 potency to everything but auto-attacks instead could carry the same dps increase as current Sword Oath with a 2.0s weapon while helping Sword Oath tanking. Because I didn't want to copy Warrior / DRK while desiring some manner of AoE, I later added on the cleave component as well, to be paired with the refreshable Shield Swipe (the lesser MT alternative) and eventually Defender (which I may well remove; not at all Core). I was aiming for parity, after all, not less weight only in certain niches (ST, physical dmg). I didn't just want PLD to be "worth bringing" (on certain encounters), but nearly as good as DRK and WAR in each tanking component (rather than being outright able to compete in, say, AoE dps), and with a few places in which it could be best.

What ive observed since 2.1 when warriors got buffed till now is that the real problem with pld is the skill that actually makes their dps competitive. Sword Oath.
Its just way too big difference between the oaths.
Just making Sword Oath into a trait or removing it and balancing the other skill potencies would pretty much close the gap there is while MT.
Cause thats where the problem lies.

I don't really agree making SwO into an even more desirable stance to prioritize.

I've had the same concerns, myself. This version remains at the same DPS bonus as a lower-mid-speed weapon does now in Sword Oath, around 14%. That's pretty huge for a stance, especially one that won't frequently be danced through or turned off. Worse yet, I've now made it practically unremovable except by going into Shield Oath (seeing as recast now toggles its Cleave component)...

However, the alternative would be to increase base potencies to a seemingly huge values, to give Gladiator itself a trait increasing damage (such as the Increased Action Damage trait on all dps) in place of another (likely making the traited version of the removed trait the default), or for PLD to get an equivalent to Maim. It stands almost exactly a Maim/Darkside behind the others in OT dps without Sword Oath. How else do we close the gap without copying another tank's toolset? (Not rhetorical, seriously asking for any alternatives.)

I think PLD just needs some basic fix's, as I only really have trouble with overgeared DPS or equal/over geared DRK/WAR's.

Those "Fix's" I think should be: A) something to give TP regen when used, like a 5sec buff with "shield swipe" that gives 20tp a tick...or every hit made while buffed by "Fight or Flight" gives back 5-10TP

Anything larger than changing Fast Blade from 70 to 60 TP would probably be a bit overpowered, from what I've seen. I've considered the Fight or Flight 10-TP return though. PLD consumes 1520 TP per minute at a 2.5 GCD, while producing 1200, or has a net loss of 320 per minute. By 2.4 GCD its net loss is ~380 per minute, reaching starvation by only 2:40. 5-TP-per-hit during FoF would produce 120 TP over 30 seconds per 90 seconds, or 40 TP per minute, reducing the net loss to 280, decreasing net loss by 12.5%, or general loss by 2.6%. This would help, but would still be inferior to Blood Weapon, which retains 12 to 14 TP each hit, at half the duration but less than half the CD, totaling about three times the effectiveness (20% less TP cost, up to 37.5% of the time, or 7.5% reduced TP cost generally). WAR similarly gets a free GCD ability for roughly every 8 GCDs, such that it spends 12.5% less TP than PLD...

[Fast Blade TP reduction from 70 to 60 would be an ~5.3% reduction in TP cost.]

It would require a ~25 TP return during FoF to hold TP as long as an OT DRK, but at that point, the simple fact that DRK cannot use Blood Weapon (as easily or frequently) while MTing makes a new MT balance between them even without making PLD's dps more on-par (faintly last place instead of thoroughly last place). Given that WAR is something of a dedicated OT, that would then give the two options of high-DPS-low-TP-pool vs. low-DPS-mid-TP-pool MTs. Not such a bad thing, but ultimately I had hoped for near-parity in both regards (TP and dps) in both MT and OT positions. [Of course, DRKs could just finally get Blood Weapon available in Grit w/o the mana bonus per hit to be the MT mid-place in TP longevity between current PLD and Defiance Warrior...]

Skimmed thru. Tons of complex chanhes that are not needed. Simply adjusting Shield Swipe, Spirits and/or circle to bypass shield oath damage down would prove great for MT dps increase. Adding in an effect to sword Oath that increases auto attack attack speed with skill speed would also go a long way towards OT dps increase. They could also bring back determination to effect auto attacks under sword oath for another easy increase. Also remove the potency varies with HP effect on spirits. Two(ish) very very simple changes that would be easy to code and not require a total overhaul. The only hard part would be the math on the SS and/or det increase on auto attacks as to not make then to powerful.

I could totally do the first part (in bold). Instead of Shield Oath "reducing damage dealt" it would just read "reducing weaponskill damage dealt". It would only equate to about a 2% dps increase though, or 6-9% total when combined with the refreshable Shield Swipe. I don't see how AAs being revised to work with SS would provide enough of an effect to be worth the loss of dps per TP compared to Det/Crit, however. Similarly, Determination still affects Auto-attacks, just at a lesser level (probably equal to or less than Crit's average effects, now), and changes there, like my Skill/Spell Speed merge, would have external effects. Especially when taking into account the balance from external effects, that would be no less complicated that +25 potency to all attacks (and 25% of weaponskill damage done to nearby enemies). I personally like the %HP-dependence of Spirits Within, but would not be sad to lose it, either.

[MATH] Each GB-RoH-RA does 2200 weaponskill per 22.5 seconds without the Sword Oath modifier suggested in the package (using 280 RoH). With Shield Oath, that would be 1760. Normally Shield Swipe, 100% health Spirits, and CoS would each do 10 potency per second or 225 potency per tri-combo or 8 pps and 180 per tri-combo in Shield Oath. oGCDs ignoring Shield Oath's .8 modifier would save 2 pps or 45 rotational potency, increasing MT WS/Abil DPS by 2.05%. A single Riot - Royal combo would drop this to 2.02%. A single RoH dropped for RA would reduce it to below 2%.

Now, that correction also allows AAs to bypass the reduction, so let's calculate those too to test:
100p/3s * 22.5s = 750 potency. With Shield Oath, 600 potency. 150 potency saved. (2200+225+750)/(2200+600+180) = 1.065, or 6.5% dps increase if Shield Oath's modifier ignored both AAs and oGCDs (only affected weaponskills). Now that would be sizable, though far from able to make up a gap between, say, 650 and 800 dps (23%).

Best part: that damage bonus wouldn't fade when not proccing blocks.... I like.

(I still want some unique way to supply Shield Oath AoE dps though, such that a DRK would swap into MT position for Blood Price, but if low on CDs, the PLD could swap back into MT position for AoE burst via Bulwark while the DRK spends his mana gains without being fettered by Grit's damage modifier, etc. I don't want PLD to be limited solely to OT when paired with a non-PLD.)

If I was going to change pld personally I would add a tiny amount of enmity to Rage. I would add a tiny amount of damage to flash maybe like 10 potency. Change divine veil to be activated by heals or clemency and have it shield the user and the party. Then change clemency to be an instant cast with a CD that would make it not too overpowered. Maybe last make shield swipe usable in sword oath without a block but maybe double or triple the CD time when in sword oath.

But then I couldn't use Flash on my Warrior to keep from breaking sleeps. : O
(Clearly only a factor in low level dungeons.)

Nor could I do a double Clemency on the MT in the few situations when I actually need Clemency.

As for the Shield Swipe, what happens if there was actually something worth pacifying that can actually be pacified, and your Swipe is now stuck with 26 second left on its timer when it would have been 4 seconds' done otherwise? (Granted, very rare situation outside of Ex rl + bees, etc.)