Paladin Parity Suggestion Package

[Februs]

Damn, I'm a little stumped.

I hate to add to your ... um... Stumpiness? But wouldn't this also cause a problem with increasing returns in Pld AoE dps over greater amounts of mobs?

I'm a little tired (and had a few to drink), so it's possible that I'm completely misunderstanding your math and combo ideas, but if Pld had reduced issues with TP consumption and could sustain Sword Oath AoE rotations for a prolonged period of time (like an entire pull), wouldn't this actually unbalance Pld in mass pull situations? You wrote examples for 2 -5 mobs... but I'm thinking more along the lines of 10 or more. I know that sounds excessive, but in treasure hunts and older dungeons it's not out of the question (ie: it isn't uncommon for a tank to pull everything in between the start to the first door in the Lost City of Amdapor, cuz' why not?).

If I'm not reading your post incorrectly, having Sword Oath turn Pld combos into AoE cleaves would give Pld's the ability to almost indefinitely sustain AoE's against mass mob pulls, especially over the increased Tp and Mp costs of War and Dark respectively. Whereas the dmg potency would be comparable to War and Drk AoE's, Pld's would have an advantage of basically having no limit to how many AoE's they could generate in a pull, meaning near infinite enmity stemming from an escalating dmg output that would eventually overcome Drk's and War's by sheer frequency (over a prolonged pull of very large size).

The Tp restriction you put in the last post would essentially stomp on this... but wouldn't that just provide the exact opposite problem? A Pld would basically be forced out of their Dps stance for the sake of Tp conservation, especially without any true means of actively restoring it. This would just put Wars and Drks back in their spots of supremacy for Mob tanking, leaving Pld behind... It seems that one method gives Plds a (potentially, depending on pull size and tp substantially) much higher Dps ceiling than the other two tanks, where as the other method shackles a Pld to their Tanking Oath for the sake of Tp conservation (which really isn't so different from the way things are now, I guess)... Like I said, I don't know if I'm truly picking up what you're putting down here, so I'm honestly curious about this.

[Shurrikhan]

I hate to add to your ... um... Stumpiness? But wouldn't this also cause a problem with increasing returns in Pld AoE dps over greater amounts of mobs?

It seems that one method gives Plds a (potentially, depending on pull size and tp substantially) much higher Dps ceiling than the other two tanks, where as the other method shackles a Pld to their Tanking Oath for the sake of Tp conservation (which really isn't so different from the way things are now, I guess)... Like I said, I don't know if I'm truly picking up what you're putting down here, so I'm honestly curious about this.

[In reference to the post-edit version of Sword Oath cleave]

Dw about my stumpiness; any feedback is helpful, even if much now goes over my head.

And you're picking it up just fine. Pretty tired myself, but just not to the point where I can actually sleep, hence my being here revising shit with half a brain...

There's definitely an issue with attached cleave when starving for TP (especially if you need damage/enmity on just one enemy in particular). With the 20% TP cost increase per enemy cleaved, to a maximum of double cost, it'd be hitting 5 mobs by the time it costs as much as Overpower. Overpower would however deal more damage by the time they're each hitting 4 mobs. However, in situations like A2(N/S) where the cleave would come into near constant use, you'd be looking at next to double TP consumption the whole time, much like if the Warrior only ever used Overpower... PLD would only be able to outperform (in every way) DRK and (in raw damage, slightly, assuming Triple-Decimate Zerks every other Zerk) WAR in a 2-3-enemy OT situation, while remaining inferior after that. They're doing decent AoE, rather than 0, but still... Damn.

I mean, speaking of coding issues, I could make an embedded toggle, where you toggle the cleave on/off instead of leaving Sword Oath. You enter Sword Oath and next recast activates Sword Oath's cleave (hit again to deactivate cleave, rather than deactivating Sword Oath). Shield Oath would still have reasons to be dropped slightly early (if you wanted to finish a combo for full damage before popping Sword Oath), but there is 0 advantage to dropping Sword Oath early, after all.

It's kind of like a similar coding disaster I've always wanted to see, two-stage cooldowns, abilities that you can add cooldown time to while they're already cooling for greater effects within, say, 3 seconds of activating a more basic component of the ability. For example, lets' say you had a Holmgang stage 1 (which pulls the enemy to you and leashes the mob to you at a 1 minute CD), and stage 2 (pulls all the way to you one more time and performs the rest of the typical Holmgang function, but adds 2 minutes CD time).
I think I saw an suggested example like this before for Thrill of Battle, using a 2 minute CD if used only personally, or a 4-minute CD if made party-wide??

[Februs]

There's definitely an issue with attached cleave when starving for TP (especially if you need damage/enmity on just one enemy in particular). With the 20% TP cost increase per enemy cleaved, to a maximum of double cost, it'd be hitting 5 mobs by the time it costs as much as Overpower. Overpower would however deal more damage by the time they're each hitting 4 mobs.

I think the escalating dmg I was referring to was a Pre-edit issue in which the standard Tp costs of Pld's kit would outlast the Tp cost of Overpower.The reason I picked out examples of 10 or more wasn't for the sake of scaling Tp, it was for time. Bigger pull typically = longer fight. A War would have a strict number of Overpowers they could use before murdering their own Tp bar. Pld's current standard Tp costs would outlive that by miles, so, even at a much weaker dmg output, Pld would outdo the dmg of War in such circumstances by being able to continue their AoE rotation for much longer... at least that's what I think I was talking about. I honestly don't even remember posting this...

Anyway, your Edit addresses the issue by ensuring that Pld's could not throw this power around willy-nilly, but I'm not so sure that the fix would be viable...

I mean, speaking of coding issues, I could make an embedded toggle, where you toggle the cleave on/off instead of leaving Sword Oath. You enter Sword Oath and next recast activates Sword Oath's cleave (hit again to deactivate cleave, rather than deactivating Sword Oath). Shield Oath would still have reasons to be dropped slightly early (if you wanted to finish a combo for full damage before popping Sword Oath), but there is 0 advantage to dropping Sword Oath early, after all.

It's kind of like a similar coding disaster I've always wanted to see, two-stage cooldowns, abilities that you can add cooldown time to while they're already cooling for greater effects within, say, 3 seconds of activating a more basic component of the ability. For example, lets' say you had a Holmgang stage 1 (which pulls the enemy to you and leashes the mob to you at a 1 minute CD), and stage 2 (pulls all the way to you one more time and performs the rest of the typical Holmgang function, but adds 2 minutes CD time).
I think I saw an suggested example like this before for Thrill of Battle, using a 2 minute CD if used only personally, or a 4-minute CD if made party-wide??

The problem I can see with this is creating an overly complex system that's inaccessible to players, especially new players or those who do not play on PC (remember that the field is shared with us Ps4 people now who don't have the same ease of access with modifying their hotbars and such... at least in default settings). War has a complicated system of management with Wrath/Abandon stacks, but the reason it works is because it flows smoothly. Wrath/Abandon stack in the background without conscious effort from the player. They just have to rotate their combos. That's the beauty of it. It's so simple. All you have to do is what you would normally be doing otherwise, and their rotation gains all the additional complexity of the Wrath/Abandon mechanics.

Making this change to SwO would not have that simplicity of use. We'd essentially be talking about modifying a stance within a stance that you had to stance dance just to get to in the first place. Never mind the fact that there would be the added technical issues of: "which version of SwO is default? Which is the one they transition into at first click of SwO? Do the two different versions get their own buttons (essentially giving Pld 3 stances), or is it a double click mechanic? If a double click, how do we have to change the current GCD to account for a player who wanted Version A over version B of SwO when first swapping?" The list goes on. After that, you have to deal with the actual implementation of modifying SwO to the version you want in-practice when using your skills. For me, this means that a double-click feature is not an option, because the GCD timer would immediately put a halt to Pld rotations (similar to the way Shield Swipe used to), thus delaying their combo by one full turn of the GCD. With that, there only leaves one options, which is a separate button used to buff or modify sword oath. Presumably, this button would be OGCD, and Pld's could use it to toggle on the fly, making their rotation a little more smooth... only, we've seen this mechanic before.

Dark Arts.

Toggling the cleave on/off from SwO would be essentially mimicking the OGCD mechanics of DA on a Drk (only difference being that it would not terminate after use, like DA).

[Shurrikhan]

The problem I can see with this is creating an overly complex system that's inaccessible to players, especially new players or those who do not play on PC (remember that the field is shared with us Ps4 people now who don't have the same ease of access with modifying their hotbars and such... at least in default settings). War has a complicated system of management with Wrath/Abandon stacks, but the reason it works is because it flows smoothly. Wrath/Abandon stack in the background without conscious effort from the player. They just have to rotate their combos. That's the beauty of it. It's so simple. All you have to do is what you would normally be doing otherwise, and their rotation gains all the additional complexity of the Wrath/Abandon mechanics.

Making this change to SwO would not have that simplicity of use. We'd essentially be talking about modifying a stance within a stance that you had to stance dance just to get to in the first place. Never mind the fact that there would be the added technical issues of: "which version of SwO is default? Which is the one they transition into at first click of SwO? Do the two different versions get their own buttons (essentially giving Pld 3 stances), or is it a double click mechanic? If a double click, how do we have to change the current GCD to account for a player who wanted Version A over version B of SwO when first swapping?" The list goes on. After that, you have to deal with the actual implementation of modifying SwO to the version you want in-practice when using your skills. For me, this means that a double-click feature is not an option, because the GCD timer would immediately put a halt to Pld rotations (similar to the way Shield Swipe used to), thus delaying their combo by one full turn of the GCD. With that, there only leaves one options, which is a separate button used to buff or modify sword oath. Presumably, this button would be OGCD, and Pld's could use it to toggle on the fly, making their rotation a little more smooth.

Sorry, tired-me wasn't being very clear. Looking at the fix now, it would indeed require a coding change to work smoothly. Essentially, once Sword Oath is cast, "Sword Oath" would have to change from a Spell (which requires a GCD to cast, and requires you to wait until the follow GCD to recast/drop, though queuable to that effect) to an Ability (truly oGCD) for true smoothness. When toggling less often though, the mere fact that all future recasts cost neither mana nor a GCD should be smooth enough (much like dropping either Oath, or Grit/Songs, is now; since Sword Oath itself would never fade, each 'recast' would follow the same parameters as dropping Sword Oath does now).

Really I just need four pieces of coding, two of which are already in game.
1. Recast doesn't remove the original ability (as per Defiance/Deliverance/Cleric/Fists while on CD)
2. ^ but working via the limitation/protection of having a CD/CD-based lock-in. (E.g. if, after learning Deliverance, hitting Defiance again simply swapped you to Deliverance instead of dropping all Wrath stacks for a "shit, fat-thumbed the wrong stance" moment, or if Fists couldn't be dropped, only swapped)
3. Original ability causes 2 effects (as per Vengeance - Vengeance (50 potency reflect) + Vuln Down).
4. Recast affects only the bonus effect.

So, ideally:
Using Sword Oath originally (cast, consumes GCD) would apply the buffs 'Sword Oath' and 'Cleave (25%)' (or w/e cooler name works). Using it a second time (oGCD) would drop only 'Cleave'. Using it a third time brings 'Cleave' back (oGCD), and so forth (all oGCD). You should be able to pop Sword Oath and turn off the Cleave immediately, well before your next GCD is ready, if you don't wish to break nearby CCs. The only time Sword Oath would use a GCD is when coming from no Oath or Shield Oath; once up, only when swapping to or from Shield Oath.

To be honest, I feel like this change should have already been made to all stance-based spells (e.g. Sword Oath, Shield Oath, Grit, Foe Requiem, Army's Paeon, and Mage's Ballad), so that player's needn't wait into the following GCD to drop them (ever the delayed Blood Weapon swap, ever the irritating Ballad drop), but this would be the first thing that would make it actually necessary.

If that were impossible, I would indeed need to use a third oGCD ability to toggle the Cleave function of Sword Oath at drain/multiplied cost (in this case TP, rather than Darkside's mana drain). Of course, I would then apply a mirrored function to Shield Oath as well, and possibly even for no-Oath. In other words, something like Inspire - unlocks an additional buff depending on your Oath, but with a new penalty as well.

Edit: Granted, the ability to drop stance-type spells as if they were oGCDs does come with the same problem as Cleric Stance does already when used back to back -- double clicks. In all cases but this modified Sword Oath, you'd want a small safety window to prevent automatic cancellation by button-mashing.

[Februs]

In all cases but this modified Sword Oath, you'd want a small safety window to prevent automatic cancellation by button-mashing.

Ah... those "PANIC!!!" moments.... been there.

Actually had a run of Arboretum the other day in which I somehow accidentally dropped ShO. Held aggro fine (much to my surprise), but with much more difficulty, and the healer couldn't figure out why I was taking so much more dmg than normal. Took another 1 or 2 pulls before we realized my Oath had disappeared.

[Shurrikhan]

Ah... those "PANIC!!!" moments.... been there.

Actually had a run of Arboretum the other day in which I somehow accidentally dropped ShO. Held aggro fine (much to my surprise), but with much more difficulty, and the healer couldn't figure out why I was taking so much more dmg than normal. Took another 1 or 2 pulls before we realized my Oath had disappeared.

And that Defiance dropping example comes from a landfill of experience. I kept making the mistake of messing with my Ctrl-1 through Ctrl-4 section of my hotbar, on which Defiance and Deliverance were located, such that my muscle memory would make me hit the same stance instead of swapping (there goes the 5 stacks I wanted for FC...). I wanted so badly for Defiance/Deliverance to just toggle into the opposite, and for Inner Beast to immediately turn into Fell Cleave once in Deliverance, and Steel Cyclone into Decimate... alas, that too, is one of those coding issues, I guess.

Edit: Thanks again for all these checks again, btw, Februs. Hard for me to know what's getting across and what I'm missing without it.

[Sevyrr]

I wanted so badly for Defiance/Deliverance to just toggle into the opposite, and for Inner Beast to immediately turn into Fell Cleave once in Deliverance, and Steel Cyclone into Decimate... alas, that too, is one of those coding issues, I guess.

Have you considered using a macro to change your hotbars for when you hit Defiance/Deliverance?
I and a member of my FC both do this, to swap Decimate and Fell Cleave with Steel Cyclone and Inner Beast. (I think his is more complex or whatever.)