So you've given SMN a role, but...

[MagiusNecros]

SMN as a class is fine. You are allowed to like it. All I'm saying is I feel less like a Summoner from FF and more like a Necromancer that slowly watches my enemies decay before me.

When you have played FF from the NES days you tend to have in depth knowledge of recurring factors of how classes have panned out. A lot of classes in this game function very differently then what is usually the case in most FF games.

As far as HW and the SMN is concerned though all the new skills you got focused on the player and not on their Egi's. You know the thing that contributes a chunk of your overall damage.

[Delily]

First, lets please stop with the "not this again" comments. The forums is the place for the fans to express their opinions so if you can't handle people having different opinions than yours then you probably shouldn't be here. This place is to express your opinions and to debate your difference in opinion in an orderly fashion. Please don't try and make other people feel unwanted here just because you don't like their opinion.

Second, there are a lot of fans who are dissapointed with the current situation.The fact that this debate keeps popping up on the forums is proof enough. However, that is not all of the fans. I don't think it's proper for either of you to speak like you represent all of the fans.

You're correct, the forums are a place to express your opinion. The problem is that this particular opinion has been hashed and rehashed on an almost weekly, if not daily, basis since 2.0 launched. If 3.0 is an indication, the design of the summoner is nt going to change away from "DoT/SS spells + pet" any time soon. It's ok to be unhappy, but expressing your opinion isn't going to change anything.

[Delily]

SMN as a class is fine. You are allowed to like it. All I'm saying is I feel less like a Summoner from FF and more like a Necromancer that slowly watches my enemies decay before me.

When you have played FF from the NES days you tend to have in depth knowledge of recurring factors of how classes have panned out. A lot of classes in this game function very differently then what is usually the case in most FF games.

As far as HW and the SMN is concerned though all the new skills you got focused on the player and not on their Egi's. You know the thing that contributes a chunk of your overall damage.

For most games in the series, the pets were just casting animations. If you want a "traditional" summoner, you'd summon Ifrit, he'd cast hellfire, and then vanish. How is that different from blm?

[MagiusNecros]

For most games in the series, the pets were just casting animations. If you want a "traditional" summoner, you'd summon Ifrit, he'd cast hellfire, and then vanish. How is that different from blm?

Wrong. For most games Summoners summoned the actual entity by invoking their name in the ancient language of magic of their world to aid them in battle. Usually through a huge attack. The only time Summoners had a pet mechanic was in FFXI. And even in XI they could summon the actual Deity to fight for them. The only factor that remains the same for a Summoner is the undisputed King of AoE damage.

BLM's had an extensive spell list that was composed of more then Fire and Ice and occasionally Thunder. They had Bio, Dark, Death spells, Banish, Drain/Osmose, Break(Petrify) even Water in other games. Support spells like Saber, Haste, Temper. We have sleep but is useless in endgame content and skills littered with AoE.

[Delily]

Wrong. For most games Summoners summoned the actual entity by invoking their name in the ancient language of magic of their world to aid them in battle. Usually through a huge attack. The only time Summoners had a pet mechanic was in FFXI. And even in XI they could summon the actual Deity to fight for them. The only factor that remains the same for a Summoner is the undisputed King of AoE damage.

BLM's had an extensive spell list that was composed of more then Fire and Ice and occasionally Thunder. They had Bio, Dark, Death spells, Banish, Drain/Osmose, Break(Petrify) even Water in other games. Support spells like Saber, Haste, Temper. We have sleep but is useless in endgame content and skills littered with AoE.

Let me rephrase that comment. If you wanted an FFIII summoner in FFXIV, he'd summon Ifrit, who'd appear, cast Hellfire (an AoE fire attack), and then vanish. How is that fundamentally different than a BLM casting Fire II or Flare in FFXIV?

As for the claim that summoners are the undisputed kings of AoE, that's irrelevant in this game. Summoners are a DoT + pet class. The *flare spells are powerful, but they have mechanics associated with them. A BLM is the king of DD, and able to put out AoE damage consistently.

Stop comparing the class to previous entries. Focus on the current design.

[HeyAFunkyFish]

Actually, summon spells in nearly all previous entries in the franchise (I through IX, including Tactics) were simple AoE-then-vanish attacks. The exceptions seem to be from X on, when we first got Aeons, then Primals, then Eidolons, and now Egis. SMN has changed quite a bit over the years, and in its current form plays more like a WoW Warlock than anything else. I enjoy the job, but it is a big departure after playing SMN in XI for so many years.

[MagiusNecros]

Damage and aesthetic flavor is your answer.

The current design is BLM is a turret mage that focuses on Fire till low on MP and then Blizzard until back up to full and repeat. Enochian doesn't really change this and Summoner is a Necromancer type class that focuses on keeping DoT's up and micro managing their minion. And has a trance that enhances their magic by 10% and allows the use of a 400 AoE and decreases the MP cost of one spell. For a pitiful 15 seconds. Also gated by Aetherflow stacks. Which you plan out and is supported by Arc lore.

There is nothing wrong with these classes for this iteration other then Pets are under utilized and received no new skills in Heavensward.

Fact of the matter is Summoner gives you a more necromantic feel. I am not slandering your beloved Summoner in any way.

If I'm not allowed to have an opinion then say so and I shall move on to more interesting discussions.

[HeyAFunkyFish]

There is nothing wrong with these classes for this iteration other then Pets are under utilized and received no new skills in Heavensward.

This is accurate. We knew SMN was going to be different this time around the moment we took up ACN, but having Enkindle as, like, the one and only pet-focused super ability is largely underwhelming under the SMN banner. I would've loved to see something more pet-focused, for example, instead of Deathflare, have your pet go full-Primal and unleash a mega attack, then revert back to normal and end Dreadwyrm Trance, even if it would still just boil down to aesthetics. Just my thought on the subject.

[Delily]

First, stop playing martyr.

Second, think about in terms of design and maintenance. The pets received no new skills in HW for the same reason we didn't receive new pets: it would add unnecessary complexity. We have a tank pet, a casting pet, and a melee pet. They all hurt the thing we're fighting (and do about 30% of your damage). What specific need do you need to have filled, and why does that ability need to go on a pet?

Third, the "damage and aesthic flavor" argument only go so far. Elemental damage is meaningless, as there are not resistances or weaknesses. You'd have 2 classes doing the same thing: AoE damage, the only difference being the casting animation. What does that add to the game?

[Ryuko]

I'm pretty happy with the lore reasons behind why we received Dreadwyrm trance the way we did. The lore does a really good job of explaining all the criticisms people have, such as why we are spreading diseases and using small Egis that are not quite as powerful as we are. The lore also explains why we wouldn't be able to call forth other Egis at this point in time. I'm not going to spoil it, but I highly recommend people review these cutscenes if you are curious.

I, too, thought it was bizarre that we would be spreading dots and disease (like a warlock/necromancer) when I first starting playing 2.0, but if you look at the actual arcanist storyline... it makes sense. It's all about timing and strategy, and while the names are 'bio' and 'miasma' and other diseases, they are all unaspected and the assumption is they are created through our ability for learning and our ability to enforce scientific principles through magical means. Like other mages, we are manipulating reality, but instead of manipulating anything around the target and having elements attack the target (fire, ice, thunder, earth, wind), we are manipulating what is within the target itself -- presumably their blood, skin and bones. And this is why I think these spells are given the names of medical ailments. But, that is just my interpretation.

I could go even further into why I think dots were a good choice for the arcanist storyline, but this is all just opinion at this point. I do think they've done a very good job of tying in summoner and scholar into the arcanist archetype, because like good mathematicians and strategists, so much about being a good smn/sch is timing, timing, timing. Keep an eye on your dots, your stacks, your cooldowns. This is true for any class, but even more so for people who primarily use dots and stacks.

I'm happy with the way summoner is now for three reasons...

1) It is an extremely unique class, even compared to summoners across all Final Fantasies. I would have been disappointed if it was a copy/paste of the final fantasies where the pet is the primary target, or the ones where the pet appears, does a move, and disappears.
2) The lore makes sense in every way. People are welcome to say they don't like summoner the way it is, but there are no discrepencies about what the lore says about why our mechanics are the way they are. In lieu of new Egis, we found another way to become more powerful -- by calling upon the power of Bahamut. Isn't that so cool and unique compared to other summoners in other games? I mean, Bahamut was central to the 2.X storyline...
3) The class is really, REALLY fun to play. Because of the timing involved in everything (dots, stacks, cooldowns), every fight forces you to do something slightly different to maximize your dps. Also, the extra utility makes me very, very happy.