So you've given SMN a role, but...

[Cabalabob]

Heavensward really fixed SMN as a role, making it King of AoE magic damage while BLM tops it in single target, just like old FF's. While in PvP it's a job to be feared, kinda reminds me of the dynamis summoner mobs in FFXI that you had to sleep and kill ASAP or they'd murder everyone.

But the big question that has always come to my mind ever since they announced the new moves for heavensward, could summoner not have been fixed through summoning?

Now I understand that dreadwyrm trance has a link to summoning through Terra's esper trance in ff6 and don't get me wrong, I have nothing against dreadwyrm trance in theory, what I take issue with is the implementation. I feel like Dreadwyrm trance and painflare are like fixing a leaky pipe by putting chewing gum over it.

Dreadwyrm trance would have made a great final move for summoner. As in something to give them at level 99 as their final ever skill. But giving it to them at 60? Seems kind of short-sighted to me, I mean Bahamut is like THE elder primal, the one that obliterated everything. Anything they add to summoner now is going to seem like a step backwards from channeling the power of Bahamut.

I feel like summoner could have been brought to the position it is in right now just as easily through summoning rather than adding the dreadwyrm trance. Could they not have added new moves to Ifrit Garuda and Titan? Maybe an AoE skill to each of them that requires an aetherflow stack instead of painflare? Instead of dreadwyrm trance could they not have made the exact same mechanic but instead of giving you a move, it would unlock extra abilities for your summons?

It just feels like yes, summoner has been patched up to work like it should, but it has been done in the wrong way, by pulling even further away from anything to do with summoning.

I've honestly seen summoner's lose their pet in dungeons and forget to resummon it the entire run, that's how little the pet actually matters to SMN anymore. In FFXI, if your pet died, you knew it, your pet was basically everything to you, without it you were just a gimpy version of whatever your subjob was. That's the kind of importance I want to feel for my pet. But the changes to SMN in heavensward takes away from that feeling when it should be trying to add to it.

[Rufalus]

Summoner doing more damage than its pet is a bit like Bard being more archery than songs. It's a strange interpretation but it's just what we have and they work well taken for what they are.

[FeliAiko]

Aside from gameplay reasons, I think the emphasis on the player stems from your character being the WoL. Would be kinda hard to sell you as this big deal... when the actual star of the show is your pet.

Wouldve preferred DWT to be a general trance system that allowed you access to a variety of Primal attacks, but that would mean practically reworking the job from scratch.

*edit* Actually, on second thought, not much rework would be required. Give Trance at 52, then you get: Levi attack (54, AoE), Ramuh attack (56, ST), Shiva attack (58, or just keep Tri-D), then Deathflare at 60.

Also as significant as Bahamut is, he isn't the pinaccle of Primals so it would be easy to create new Primals from other lands portrayed as being on his level in power if not more. You already have this with the Warring Triad, for example.

[SendohJin]

Aside from gameplay reasons, I think the emphasis on the player stems from your character being the WoL. Would be kinda hard to sell you as this big deal... when the actual star of the show is your pet.

that's irrelevant? that's the same thing as saying the star of the show is the Lance for a DRG or the star of the show being the fireball for a BLM. the avatars are part of the arsenal wielded by the character, it doesn't diminish the character.

but i've been of the opinion that Summoning in FF MMOs would work better as trances/stances and not as pets for a long time now. Ifrit Mode cast Inferno, Titan Mode cast Landslide, etc.

[pushin_tin]

Gonna copy/paste a SMN rework idea I thought up a few months ago.

Your level 60 introductory class quest will end up with you losing your Egis (which now function as SMN specific minions). Instead, you gain the power to invoke and channel the power of primals other than Bahamut. During the course of the quest, you will obtain your first summon and your max Aetherflow stack increases to five. In normal form, we still have the following four abilities to use Aetherflow and gain Aethertrail Attunement:

Energy Drain
Fester
Painflare
Bane

These abilities function as they do now. Once you have five Aethertrail stacks, you can invoke a primal, removing those four skills and replacing them with four others that are unique to whatever you are invoking. Think GW2 Elementalist. The first three skills in each set build up stacks of a buff that replaces Aethertrail Attunement and increases the effect of the Astral Flow skill. Using the last skill will grant up to five stacks of a new buff called Aethertrail Singularity that will work towards unlocking Dreadwyrm Trance, which remains the strongest invocation. (Eg, if you use an Astral Flow with four stacks of the summon's buff, you will gain four stacks toward attaining Dreadwyrm). Astral Flows can only be used once per invocation.


Ifrit - (single target DPS focus). Skills grant stacks of Infernal Fury.

1.) Strong fire-based single target spell
2.) Damage increasing self-buff
3.) Damage dealing gap-closer (based on Ifrit HM/EX's charge)
Astral Flow: Hellfire attack, massive damage on single target, higher stacks of Infernal Fury increases damage.

Garuda - (DoT enhancing, speed and mobility) Skills grant stacks of Galeforce

1.) Skill that doubles potency of all DoTs on target, but cuts duration in half
2.) Single target buff that increases target's Skill/spellspeed, attack speed, and movement speed for a short time.
3.) Skill that transfers all DoTs from target X to current target, where target X is the target inflicted by the most potent set of DoTs based on time remaining and potency based on usage of skill 1.
Astral Flow: Contagion, now increases duration of all DoTs by a percentage in order to be balanced with skill 1. Percentage increases with stacks of Galeforce.

Titan - (Stuns, defensive cooldowns) Skills grant stacks of The Land.

1.) Melee range oGCD stun with some damage
2.) Granite Gaol - encases friendly target in stone gaol, nullifying one instance of damage, but preventing target from performing any action. Lasts ___ seconds or until the damage instance is soaked. (Doesn't soak instakill mechanics.)
3.) Skill that functions like Titan HM/EX's bombs - allows you to place earth bomb on the ground which explodes after ____ seconds.
Astral Flow: WoTL - placeable ground AoE that does damage over time to all enemies inside, as well as slowing their attack speed. Damage and slow effect increase with higher stacks of The Land.

Ramuh - Strong AoE burst damage. Skills grant stacks of Judgment.

1.) Thunderspark - instant cast lightning AoE damage centered on player.
2.) Rolling Thunder - places thunder cloud over target, blasting it and nearby enemies ____ times for moderate damage (can't place multiple clouds over one target, but one target can take multiple instances of damage from different clouds)
3.) Summon Arbiter - Uncontrollable pet that attacks current target with melee attacks and lasts ___ seconds. Builds up electric energy with each attack it deals. Pressing the skill again will make it explode with an electric discharge, dealing damage in an AoE based on how much energy was built up.
Astral Flow: Shock Strike - strong cleave attack that damages target and all near it. Damage increases with more stacks of Judgment.

Shiva - (enhances auto-attacks with debilitating effects). Skills grant stacks of Permafrost.

1.) Ice Sword - transforms your Grimoire into an Ice Sword and increases STR based off your INT stat. Your auto-attacks place a stacking debuff on the target that lowers target's STR and DEX (effect stacks with Virus and other similar skills).
2.) Ice Staff - same as Ice Sword, but auto-attacks place debuff lowering INT and MND.
3.) Ice Bow - same concept, grants ranged auto-attack, places stacking piercing vulnerability up on target.
(The aforementioned weapons will melt ten seconds after application. The debuffs also last ten seconds, and the duration is not refreshed when the debuff is stacked.)
Astral Flow: Diamond Dust - small Ice AoE damage in wide AoE around player, lowers determination of all targets hit. Damage and determination debuff increase with more stacks of Permafrost.


Dreadwyrm Trance - Highest Single target and AoE burst damage potential. Requires 25 stacks of Aethertrail Singularity to activate. Upon activation, magic damage dealt will gradually increase every second, and you lose one stack of Aethertrail Singularity every second. Dreadwyrm Trance ends once Aethertrail Singularity goes back to zero, or when Gigaflare is used.

1.) Ruin III - same as before, but can now only be used in Dreadwyrm
2.) Divebomb - Basically dragonfire dive, also oGCD.
3.) Deathflare - same as it is now (oGCD), but does not end Dreadwyrm.
Astral Flow: Gigaflare. Massive damage to all enemies in your enemy list (in PvP, all opponents within ___ range).

There's a lot of room for syngergy between the different summons - for instance you can buff your attack speed near the end of summoning Garuda, then switch to Shiva to get in more autoattacks with your Ice Weapons. Or, use Ifrit to close the gap to an enemy to set up for the melee playstyle of Titan or Ramuh.

Would this class be insanely complicated? Yeah.
Would it practically require addon usage to optimize? Probably.
Would it be insanely OP? Of course.

Would it be the most fun **** to play ever? HELL YAH!

[Dualblade]

snip

This is basically what I've been thinking would be good for SMN since they announced Dreadwyrm, except without the ability to put it in words, and obviously the fact that it needs to be balanced still and not hella OP. But it would be awesome and very much in the lore of how Primals and Summoning in FFXIV work.

Hell, we've beaten 14 people who basically do this but on a much bigger scale, WoL summoner could totally pull off a lesser varient of what Ysayle/the Heavesward were able to do!

I'd rather it more about the pets what it is now. The job is fine but it is not a "pet class" which we voted for in the 1.x days. Remember the player polls? Pet Class won..well, sorry but this doesn't feel like a pet class at all.

This could be another reason to have Summoner change over to Trance instead of pets, and have a new pet class/job instead that lets the team start from scratch and come up with a better system for said new class/job. Like, say, Beastmaster.

[Shurrikhan]

Would this class be insanely complicated? Yeah.
Would it practically require addon usage to optimize? Probably.
Would it be insanely OP? Of course.

Would it be the most fun **** to play ever? HELL YAH!

I really wish this was the aim with which most jobs started.
Sign of a great class -> feeling slightly overwhelmed even as a veteran and feeling totally OP when technically not.

Most of my thoughts on potential Summoner revisions have revolved around much the same. Tried to make it so resources (e.g. AF) can be spent on:
- Caster direct damage/effects (e.g. Fester, Bane, Deathflare, Energy Drain)
- Pet direct damage/effects (two more abilities per pet that consume resource)
- Caster buffs - via pet (gain a gameplay-changing buff based on your current pet and adjusting certain attacks into a particular elemental aspect which will have differing synergy with other aspects added from other pets - stacks up to twice)
- Pet buff (accelerating cooldowns, attack speed, and regeneration, and improving certain linked effects, fading over time and use - each comes with a size increase - stacks up to 3 times)

And where several actions can make unique use of consuming your pet. Generally a lot more pet swapping, even without consuming. More use of 'rifts' and quick-casting.

Hiding all this because I'm way too tired right now to finish anything coherently but also keeping what little I have because want to remind myself of this line of thought later...

[FeliAiko]

that's irrelevant? that's the same thing as saying the star of the show is the Lance for a DRG or the star of the show being the fireball for a BLM. the avatars are part of the arsenal wielded by the character, it doesn't diminish the character.

but i've been of the opinion that Summoning in FF MMOs would work better as trances/stances and not as pets for a long time now. Ifrit Mode cast Inferno, Titan Mode cast Landslide, etc.

There's a difference between a person physically using a weapon, engaging in the action, versus someone standing still while their pet does all the action. It's no coincidence that SMNs of note tended to be either BLMs or WHMs, after all.

[Rongway]

but i've been of the opinion that Summoning in FF MMOs would work better as trances/stances and not as pets for a long time now. Ifrit Mode cast Inferno, Titan Mode cast Landslide, etc.

They can't do that; all the BUM--I mean Blue Mage, of course--fanatics would be upset at burning a Form/Mode ability set mechanic on SMN.

[Tsilyi]

yeah but... what about King Moggle Mog invocation? :<