Tank Balance - Thordan EX 7-WAR 1-WHM Clear (Really SE?)

[Exodus_Kenpachi]

Just a little question on that..
Let's suppose you don't manage to do it.
Will it means that WAR brings too much DPS, or that DRK and/or PLD bring too little ? And why ?

Thordan is mechanic heavy and had very low DPS checks so I have no doubt I will be able to clear it.

DrK needs a slight TP management buff or a way to siphon TP as well (2nd hit of power slash combo maybe) but that is only becuase I feel tanks should never be in a position where they floor out. Honestly I wish they would just let DrK and PLD have invigorate.

PLDs issue is MT DPS, no real utility, and clunky skills.

Everyone keeps focusing on personal DPS and forgetting that support DPS is a thing. I feel like PLD should be the BRD of tanks which would solve everyone's issue with them.

[Reynhart]

No one likes a nerf, the argument will be drk and pld need a buff. But I did notice that some of the people defending warrior are warriors. I see the same reaction from warriors in my ls, go figure.

Like most people, I don't really like jobs to be nerfed.
But, from the way I see it, if "all WAR" can clear as fast as usual setup and "all PLD"/"all DRK" can't clear, or can clear much slower, which should be intended, since they're tanks, the wrong numbers should be on WARs.

A little reminder, though. I have nothing personal against WAR, I find the job really fun to play, even though it's my least favorite tank. Should PLD or DRK stand undoubtedly above, I would do the same to point out the flaws. And if the next raid tier is specifically designed for PLD, and DRK is left out for an ideal PLD+WAR setup, I'll do the same too.

Thordan is mechanic heavy and had very low DPS checks so I have no doubt I will be able to clear it.

That didn't really answer the question
So, let's change it a little. If you're only able to clear it much slower. Would it mean that WAR is too fast or PLD is too slow, and why ?

[Freyyy]

You are going to record that fight right Exodus? I really wanna see it. what kind of accessories will all your pld be using? str or vit?

What kind of accessories do you think WARs doing this used ? PLDs are gonna use the exact same set. I'm very confident that this can be done with 7 PLD as well. This fight is a joke DPS-wise.

People still arguing that WAR has to be nerfed are starting to give me cancer. Why don't people just want the other tanks to be buffed at WAR level instead of absolutely wanting WAR to get nerfed ? That's just stupid. WAR is the result of the best job design they did in the game, it should be the BASE EXAMPLE of the amount of work they should put on balancing EVERY jobs. WAR DOES NOT NEED A NERF. IT NEEDS TO REMAIN AS IT IS (okay maybe nerf Equilibrium's TP restore, I'm okay for that). The other tanks (ESPECIALLY PLD) should be brought to WAR's level. I can't understand why people ABSOLUTELY want to see WAR being nerfed like that. It's like, let's say, your friend has done 3 drawings. The first one is very beautiful and perfect, the second one is almost perfect, and the third one is ugly as fuck. Would you say to him "hey, you should re-do the first two. You should make them ugly as fuck like the third." ? Or would you say "Hey, you should re-do the third one, it's ugly as fuck and I know you can do better by looking at the other two. The second could also get some adjustments but is already very beautiful as it is" ?

[Reynhart]

Why don't people just want the other tanks to be buffed at WAR level instead of absolutely wanting WAR to get nerfed ?

Because it's expected that tanks bring far less DPS that actual DPS. So, if a team of WAR can bring close to the same global DPS output (i.e the same clear time) while other tanks are lower, it means that WAR are too high.
And again, WAR's design has an obvious flaw...the fact that WAR has no real flaw.

And also the fact that, by boosting other jobs, you'll just make all content less challenging.

Your point with the drawing is not really accurate, since there's no point of reference for what drawing he should be able to do.

[ArkNova]

What kind of accessories do you think WARs doing this used ? PLDs are gonna use the exact same set. I'm very confident that this can be done with 7 PLD as well. This fight is a joke DPS-wise.

It was a subtle joke to the threads bitching about how tanks need to wear str or vit, sorry it flew over your head.

[Freyyy]

Because it's expected that tanks bring far less DPS that actual DPS. So, if a team of WAR can bring close to the same global DPS output (i.e the same clear time) while other tanks are lower, it means that WAR are too high.
And again, WAR's design has an obvious flaw...the fact that WAR has no real flaw.

What you seem to fail to understand is that in this specific fight, everything perfectly lines up with WAR's burst phase (Berserk). That's why they're so high and they bring almost DPS-levels of DPS. You also seem to forget that there is only one healer, compared to a normal group with 2 of them. I'm very confident that a group with 5 DPS and 1 healer is gonna wreck the shit out of Thordan in a faster way than this 7 WAR clear.

[Brian_]

Oh, and by the way, since tanks balance threads are all over the place now, I'm sure everyone that complain is just the same as me while you still hold the very truth that there is nothing wrong with WAR. Again, a little reminder. This topic started with a clear video of a 7-WAR PT killing the most recent content as fast as any usual setup. So, it doesn't require a math degree to understand that since the boss has the same HP, for killing it with the same time, you have to output around the same DPS...

This is why no one should take you seriously. You look at that video, the gear people are wearing, the lodestones provided, the fact that it's on the 23rd of November 2 weeks after early progression, and the kill time and you don't think that's slow? Have you even done Thordan EX? In that video, he ends phase 1 at 74%. Decent groups will all skip the last cleave and have Thordan sub 70%. Most decent farm groups will have Thordan dead when that group is at 15%. A group with multiple A4S clearing players geared in what is likely full BiS is going to perform a little better than just a decent group. To give you an idea, I've been in farm groups that have pushed phase 1 at 67% and killed shortly after the stacked mechanics in phase 8, ~21% before this group kills. And, that's with 2 healers (though the SCH basically is just DPSing).

it doesn't require a math degree to understand that since the boss has the same HP, for killing it with the same time, you have to output around the same DPS...

Sure thing, bro.

I have nothing to prove to you.

This is not about proving anything to me. I couldn't care less. This is about the legitimacy of your posts and the credibility of what you're saying. And, on too many occasions, you've proven you don't know enough to be having any respectable conversation.

Usually, I don't really care about individual progression when gauging the validity of posts. If what's said makes sense and checks out against basic knowledge, then who cares if they're a casual or if they've cleared A4S. The issue arises when the posts look like yours and are just littered with garbage.

[Exodus_Kenpachi]

Because it's expected that tanks bring far less DPS that actual DPS. So, if a team of WAR can bring close to the same global DPS output (i.e the same clear time) while other tanks are lower, it means that WAR are too high.
And again, WAR's design has an obvious flaw...the fact that WAR has no real flaw.

Classes don't need "flaws" they need to lack a utility that another class brings. You keep pushing me to say that PLD needs a DPS buff, which IT DOES NOT. PLD needs a UTILITY buff that allows other party member to output more DPS. Like I said previously, think the BRD of tanks. They could grant healer buffs, grant raidwide shields and mitigation, they could attach a debuff to RA that increases blunt damage and then make shield swipe blunt damage and then BOOM they are MNKs favorite tank. There are a million things that SE could do to make PLDs sought after and personal DPS increase is not one of them.

Also you do not want tanks to have TOO low DPS because then people won't bring them. This whole "it is expected so therefore it should be" bullshit needs to leave your brain.

Honestly if they made PLD a BRD-esque tank they would be a favorer OT for progression and I would actually main it because it would be loads of fun

[Vogue]

Because it's expected that tanks bring far less DPS that actual DPS. So, if a team of WAR can bring close to the same global DPS output (i.e the same clear time) while other tanks are lower, it means that WAR are too high.

And also the fact that, by boosting other jobs, you'll just make all content less challenging.

...

Exactly this, if they were to buff DRK and PLD to the same level as WAR, then what prevents people from forcing full tank parties, they aren't as squishy as all other DPS, and will be able to put out enough damage to clear the content, so why not make things easy, we all know people love easy fights

So lets say they buff pld and drk, then eventually have to buff the dps because of the issue stated above, which means all fights will need to be re-balanced or they wouldn't be challenging anymore, so isn't simpler to just adjust warrior to the other tanks and if needed, buff up some of the dps?

[Aiio]

Nothing wrong with this video, nor the class. Clear would most likely be attainable with 7 PLD/DRK composition too given current gear and the fight is more a mechanic/memory check rather than DPS.

What bothers me is people in this thread talking about WAR needing to be nerfed, when it really doesn't. WAR is very well designed and only appears strong because there have been some very bad class designs for the other two tanks. What people should be more aware of is that if they buffed the other two tanks to their own unique designs and traits, then everyone would stop saying WAR needs a nerf.