Enmity build up on untargetable bosses

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

Any healer who has done SCOB T4, FCOB T4, Alexander 3 (savage) and/or King Thordan (Extreme) must have noticed the fact that healers keep building enmity through healing during phases where the boss cannot be targeted. The fact it cannot be targeted means that the tanks can't do anything about it either. This hasn't posed much of a problem yet, as current content does not instantly murder you when the phase changes. But for the SCOB and FCOb veterans among us can surely remember the Raven's descent and Ahk Morn being the first thing that will happen as the boss can be targeted again. For those who haven't done those back when it was relevant content: It usually meant instant death if you weren't a tank and on top of the enmity list: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neT3uh0CRwU

Normally this was never really an issue here as long the White Mage use Shroud of Saints frequently to dump enmity. In the video, however, the White Mage forgot to use Shroud once (normally twice) and got the entire group murdered - We dubbed it the Sephiroth dive.

DPS jobs obviously do not suffer from this kind of problem. Unless, of course, murdered because a healer happened to be near him/her and on top of the enmity list. Among the healers Astrologians have the biggest issue, Scholars "moderate" problems and White Mage the least.
Scholars don't have any enmity modifiers, but they are in a special situation here. A part of the healing enmity is dumped on the fairy and they're less likely to be the one AoE healing of the healing pair.
White Mages obviously have the least issues with it: They can almost use it whenever they really want to and dumps your enmity while you use Shroud of Saints for MP.
Astrologians Luminiferous Aether (LA) works a lot like Quelling Strikes: It prevents a chunk of Enmity build up. You could argue that an Astrologian could save LA for certain heavy AoE healing moments. And this does happen to align perfectly if you use it on Dragon's Rage in King Thordan. But this isn't always the case and I've personally gotten into situations where I've on top of the enmity list depending on RNG and the group: Whether we kill one knight before Holiest of Holy or not. And god, King Thordan has a long phase where the boss cannot be targeted and requires quite a bit of healing.

Interestingly enough, healers aren't the only ones "suffering" from the enmity build up. Tanks can't do anything about it until the boss can be targeted again. While tanks can build up some extra enmity before the boss struts off like haters gonna hate, this comes at the cost of their individual performance. In particular Paladins take the biggest dent in their performance here, considering they have the lowest enmity combo potency among the tanks. The other issue for tanks would be the amount of time they are given to build up enmity before the boss struts off and the duration of the next transition where the boss is untargetable. Depending on both durations, the build up enmity may not even be sufficient to last till the phase after.

Bringing a Ninja can serve as a band-aid fix for any enmity issues the group would have. Or simply have the warrior open the fight with unchained for some head start enmity build up. But isn't this "gimmick" worth considering as a design error, rather than a weakness of a job? If tanks could actually do -something- about it, sure. But this is simply an annoyance for certain jobs, players with a certain (dis)ability and certain group compositions and maybe even a lethal one for future content.

tldr; Prevent enmity building on bosses through healing while it cannot be targeted or is invulnerable.

[Eisenhower]

I've been on the receiving end of the Sephiroth Dive (and shamefully more than once), but I disagree on the point presented.

I would not consider having a ninja to transfer/lower enmity or using a warrior to frontload a bunch of enmity to be a gimmick or flaw in design. That a healer generates aggro and the party being forced to deal with it in some manner is an appropriate cost/risk as well as a reasonable puzzle piece in the problem that an encounter entails. Though it is unfortunate that paladins have weak enmity generation in their main combo, I am of the opinion that the healers have sufficient tools to deal with the problem.

The WHMs have it easiest with Shroud, and often only have themselves to blame. I have personally not seen a paired SCH top the aggro list on bosses from just healing, which leaves the AST. For those I am of the firm belief that good timing of LA can solve a lot of problems. A tank dying and passing on top enmity to healers is a case I do not consider relevant to this discussion - that is a failure solely in the hands of the players, not the system.

Aside from the T9 surprise, I don't think any other boss in the game opens (as in "cannot be targeted before") a phase with a massive targeted spike. If future bosses follow this pattern, then there is plenty of time for tanks to get their shit together and grab aggro.

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

I'm on mobile, so I'll be brief

This goes further than "current content". I have mentioned some other examples with (very) short time windows to get hate back. This is more about future content if anything like T5, T9, T12, T13 and King Thordan. T5-13 hasn't been much of a problem as Astrologians didn't exist back then. But if consider future content with extended periods where the tanks can't do anything to the bosses while healers keep piling up enmity. LA will only do so much. While it's still managable with a DRK or WAR tank, PLDs simply get blown away by it or have to sacrifice their individual performance. Considering how DPS driven this game is, that will just make PLD even less appealing or locks a raid spot/raid spots for a certain job aside from BRD/MCH and to an extend SCH and WAR

[Kumori_Kumo]

I actually agree, but for a different reason: It's getting too difficult to keep emnity, period. Like, everyone should try to get the best gear they can, obviously, but even in more casual content the emnity is getting tighter and tighter if you're not at the top of the class in equipment. Where before a simple Unchained + Berserk at the start would be all the hate you needed for the rest of the fight, the sheer amount of damage and healing coming out of the other classes is- while quite awesome on its face!- starting to present a long-term problem. I would attribute this to tools: DPSes got more tools to weave in more damage between GCDs, and healers got more group heal options, generating far and away more emnity than before. But interestingly most of the tank tools came in the form of extra damage for DPS phases, which doesn't really translate into additional aggro. It wasn't particularly great before but at least there were options.

It isn't quite what I'd describe as 'really bad' yet, untenable or broken, but it's clear that they can't just do the same thing come another expansion, or we'll be facing some very real problems. I'm kind of hoping 3.2 will bring changes on this front.

[LegoTechnic]

One of the easiest work arounds is to have the SCH heal during add phases where the boss is absent instead of the WHM as they typically have ridiculously low enmity from DPSing in earlier phases, and WHM tends to have better burst DPS for lower HP adds anyway (see: A3S puddings). In fights like Bahamut where the adds were beefy the SCH can easily dot and then switch to heal after a few seconds while the WHM throws stones, and that works out pretty well if they just juggle it as needed.

Otherwise yes, keep up the shroud, because regen hate is real.

[Tranquil]

I agree that it is pointless that healers generate enmity on targets during invulnerability phases. Whether you can work around it or not (which you can) - I can't really think of a reason why this is a thing. The actual problem is not really even in the creating of a super high aggro ceiling (easy to do pull off if one wishes to do so), but the fact it's more beneficial that tanks only create a comfortably high aggro ceiling and then capitalize on DPS. Even if tanks are barely (but calculatedly) ahead of the others in hate, it doesn't become a problem in normal situations. However, if you have long invulnerability phases, aggro can be lost.

Right now it is not a problem, because the content isn't as punishing with this as T9 would have been post-Golem phase (e.g. if you lose hate as a MT in Thordan HM, you can just Provoke it back and go from there), but who knows about the future? WHM and SCH don't really have any issues with this, but AST is really high on enmity with LA alone, which is a lot less potent for enmity over time well into an encounter, than Shroud.

[HyperiusUltima]

While LA does work like Quelling Strikes, I believe it to be enough, actually. How enmity builds up all depends on how powerful the heals are vs. The Tank's Enmity Built Up. Sure, if the AST has been healing in Diurnal for a long time and has built up Orange Enmity in the meteor phase due to overhealing and the needed healing, then they could get some help from the other healer like someone stated above. While ASTs have a good amount of enmity generation without LA, using LA preemptively(due to how much their healing costs at times) benefits them in the long run when they're using Lightspeed with it to pump out heavy heals for the raid.

[Sleigh]

I'd suspect the aggro while invuln thing is more to do with coding or how fights flow, so I think it'd be better to discuss or ask for a solution to the real problem, AST's LA. While I'm not a fan of clone abilities in general, I do think LA should just have an aggro dump instead of Quelling attached, because a dump is just plain better in 99% of situations, it's not about flavor or preference. Halving your total occasionally aggro just produces less total aggro than occasionally producing half aggro, you need only look at WHM's hideously low aggro in any fight by the 4-5 minute mark while an AST may be one of the highest.

One of the times I think copying a move is worth the boring view the player might have of it.

[Kerrigen]

Or make it a 60s CD while halving its refresh potency to double the QS uptime if we're going for flavor.

Yeah I'm aware it nerfs the mana return from CO but I don't care, because in an ideal world where this exists CO is a much better skill anyway.

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

I don't think this is a problem with certain ability/abilities for certain jobs, but more of a techinical problem. Even if LA would become a Shroud of Saints clone, Scholars would still have no enmity modifier. While they build up nowhere as much enmity as the other two healers, in the most extreme cases - solo healing, for example - Scholars would be the job with any potential enmity issues. If not Scholar, perhaps a future healing job or other potential tank/healer composition depending on encounter and, to an extend, selection of dps jobs