Diadem and Savage - I can't deal with it anymore

[zosia]

These are the problems I tried to convey over two months ago coming home to roost. Here we are, losing members of the community who are more valuable than single players. The OP is a person who puts work into their class to such an extent that they become a wealth of knowledge for many other BLMs. Now we risk losing players like this, and for what? Participation medals? People need to wake up. There is a reason the best rewards always comes from the hardest content and undermining that principle is causing FFXIV's end game to collapse.

How many more vacant servers, numerous threads riddled with discontent, stagnating (and even decreasing) activity numbers, and the lack of new characters do you guys have to see before you understand that this game is not impervious to damage from mistakes made in development?

Raiders should not care about gear? Well, let me ask, why do casual care so much? Does having a permanent 10 ilvl gap between raiding gear and non-raiding gear bug you that much? Does the notion of risk vs reward even mean anything to you? Most players can't even perform their rotations and you're worried about having better gear than raiders?

Stopped here.

and nothing of value was lost

Raiders got exclusive access to high lvl gear before anyone else for months and yet other players shouldn't get it cause they didn't put in the time to raid UM no, SE knows that they need to provide alternatives to the folks that don't raid....

And guess what your still ahead they don't get dips yet but you can...you still get more opportunities to upgrade your gear through savage as well...

No, no, no! Let me explain why that logic is flawed.

Unless you were a world class raider, most players only had access to the best gear for a month or two. The more general raiding populous was clearing a3s around august and September. For a4s, only the raiding elite had access to that gear (until the thordan weapons).

Most raiders barely had a chance to appreciate their gear before it was invalidated. Also, if you're going to say that they still technically had access even if they had not killed the bosses yet, the same point can be made about the entire game population having access to alex savage.

[Takfloyd]

OP is 100% correct on all points. Square Enix has dropped the ball in multiple ways here. I don't need to reiterate what he said.

I will add however that nothing was EVER going to live up to Coil no matter what, so people's expectations shouldn't have been set that high. Coil had the benefit of riding on an insane amount of hype that carried over from all the way back in 1.X - the End of an Era trailer sold the game to a large amount of people. When you finally entered, you felt like this is what every moment you've spent on the game was preparing you for. It will never be topped.

Still, that's not an excuse for having a shoddy endgame now. Let's not jump to conclusions until the next Alexander raid comes out though - maybe they'll have learned from their mistakes.

[Aomine1992]

. Raiders should not care about gear? Well, let me ask, why do casual care so much? Does having a permanent 10 ilvl gap between raiding gear and non-raiding gear bug you that much? Does the notion of risk vs reward even mean anything to you? Most players can't even perform their rotations and you're worried about having better gear that raiders?

This is the sad part casual folks did not complain once about needing the top gear it's the raiders complaining about casuals having access to it...

Alex savage is stupid and always has been but you guys chose to waste your time doing it for obviously the gear since no one has said ooo the story line is awesome >_> I am not casual and I enjoy raids but I do not feel for ppl like OP who are throwing a fit and trying to thwart content that other players seem to like...

Complain about current raiding which sucks but don't drag content for others down in the process...

[zosia]

This is the sad part casual folks did not complain once about needing the top gear it's the raiders complaining about casuals having access to it...

Alex savage is stupid and always has been but you guys chose to waste your time doing it for obviously the gear since no one has said ooo the story line is awesome >_> I am not casual and I enjoy raids but I do not feel for ppl like OP who are throwing a fit and trying to thwart content that other players seem to like...

Complain about current raiding which sucks but don't drag content for others down in the process...

Exactly what can we do to make it better? The one thing players want the most, you are not willing to concede. People want the best rewards to come from the hardest content. Diadem and Void ark would still be just as relevant as they are now if the only gear that was obtainable from them was ilvl 200.

It's fine, this game only does well in the vacuum left by the golden era of wow. Lets see how well this game holds up when a few new MMO's hit the scene. People like the OP, many others in this thread, and myself are all growing tired of the lack of reasonable carrots on the end of the raiding stick. There will be greener pastures and you guys will have this game all to yourselves when the last modicum of talent leaves this end game wasteland.

[ruskie]

First I don't think it's fair to compare Alex first 5 turns to the entire Coil series. If you are going to make a comparisons, story wise, than it's should be first bind coil to first Alex. Second I do think SE screwed up on Savage by copy and paste normal fight with more damage. You can have the same boss but change the encounter gimmicks and environment. It should be a new experience for raiders.

True. You shouldn't compare it like that. So let's compare it to bcob alone.


Enter Turn 1 - so and so many yalms underground:
giant cavernous cave system with one of bahamut's wings sprawling over it crystalized, boss splits, getting damage stacks over time if not doing the mechanics properly

Enter Turn 2 - so and so many yalms underground:
a collection of ADS systems in a constant in combat gauntlet with a make your own finall ads from killing specific ones

Enter Turn 3 - so and so many yalms underground:
ik, ik it has no real reward, it's just a death race but still, it's HUGE, you are jumping down an inside of spaceship engine!!!

Enter Turn 4 - so and so many yalms underground:
Ridding down a makeshift elevator from a drive cilynder.

Enter Turn 5 - so and so many yalms underground:
First time I entered this - I was dizzy and lost - I didn't see anyone on the map since they all ran off, the scale of it all, how insignificant my character looked, and then noticing what we were fighting on - that's a frigging hand!


vs

Alex(s)
Floor 1:
claustrophobic, steampunky themed something or other with a striking dummy dps check that you need to do each time you run out of time or someone rqs and you need to requeue in - only to then be greeted by... an I have a twin robot, robot - wait didn't we see this before? But ok I can live with the whole idea that the instance should feel oppressive etc... at least it's a theme.

Floor 2:
erm did we hook a wrong turn and ended up in brayflox longstop hm or something? at least it's not as claustrophobic as floor 1.

Floor 3:
arguably one of the more interesting fights and I'd say locations as well - at least in normal you get to explore it a bit. It has a bit more of that coil feel - my own experience in savage is limited up to hands in a training run but still even that mechanic is interesting.

Floor 4:
I have no frigging idea where in this thing I am or what this thing is even... it has legs... it somehow sucks people up randomly - also where are these mechanical dolls coming from? Suddenly they just materialize there I mean with the boss name manipulator it could idk maybe manipulate some cranes and bring them in that way.

And yes while I do agree that players should see the story but at the same time - it removed one of my main motivators for raiding.

[ruskie]

I will add however that nothing was EVER going to live up to Coil no matter what, so people's expectations shouldn't have been set that high.
Still, that's not an excuse for having a shoddy endgame now. Let's not jump to conclusions until the next Alexander raid comes out though - maybe they'll have learned from their mistakes.

It doesn't need to top it but it should be at least on the scale. I rewatched all the coil and all the alex cutscenes a while ago in one sitting.

Adding it all up was like 1.5h worth of coil in duty only cutscenes - I didn't even check if there was anything out of duty under quests, Alex? Meh not a whole lot at all.... and what is there was disapointing.

[Aomine1992]

snip.

Savage should have been completely new not rehashes to start lol just awful and the story needs a major overhaul...

Yea diadem and VA will still be relevant but who cares raiding is suppose to be about the challenge and achievement anyways not just some gear that you really don't need I mean come on what content would require ilvl 215 gear currently lol we already got tanks doing 10k critz we don't wanna over do it...but the point is I think ppl thoughts are in the wrong place God forbid my casual friend has a 210 wep :O

[Dyvid]

Exactly what can we do to make it better? The one thing players want the most, you are not willing to concede. People want the best rewards to come from the hardest content. Diadem and Void ark would still be just as relevant as they are now if the only gear that was obtainable from them was ilvl 200.

Well as one of those dirty dirty casual, all I wanted was Alex story and to rock castle gear. In fact I was worried when they dropped i200 gear weeks after Alex and rightfully so because they are over saturating with gear but without true horizontal progression they can only go up. Ideally your BiS should have needed 2 items from Alex, 2 from Void, 2 from Diadem, and maybe accessories from vendor. You should never give raid gear from non raid gear content until after new Savage is released. Of course I think I said this with Hunts too.

On the flip side though shouldn't you be asking for Diadem Savage or something similar for some hard core raiding? Something to give raiders more BiS options?

snip

I'm sorry but no, I would say the first binding coil and Alex are on par in the story department because it's setting up the narrative, nothing more. As for size and scope, well devs get mixed messages on this one. We can say we want this grand dungeon crawlers for raids but people go out of their way to skip through everything to get from one boss to the next. Speed runs, sack pulls, The Praetorium; if players can skip it they will. Only option I can counter to this is just link all the savages into one long run that saves your place at each boss once you get there but I know the community would scream bloody murder.

[zosia]

Savage should have been completely new not rehashes to start lol just awful and the story needs a major overhaul...

Yea diadem and VA will still be relevant but who cares raiding is suppose to be about the challenge and achievement anyways not just some gear that you really don't need I mean come on what content would require ilvl 215 gear currently lol we already got tanks doing 10k critz we don't wanna over do it...but the point is I think ppl thoughts are in the wrong place God forbid my casual friend has a 210 wep :O

If alex savage was different, then we have the same issue of casuals *needing* to see the story. If you don't change it enough, it will be just as boring as this 1st alex raid tier.

No, the value of raiding does not have a universal meaning. It different from raider to raider. Some people like the gear rewards. It a fairly common opinion among raiders.

Well as one of those dirty dirty casual, all I wanted was Alex story and to rock castle gear. In fact I was worried when they dropped i200 gear weeks after Alex and rightfully so because they are over saturating with gear but without true horizontal progression they can only go up. Ideally your BiS should have needed 2 items from Alex, 2 from Void, 2 from Diadem, and maybe accessories from vendor. You should never give raid gear from non raid gear content until after new Savage is released. Of course I think I said this with Hunts too.

On the flip side though shouldn't you be asking for Diadem Savage or something similar for some hard core raiding? Something to give raiders more BiS options?

I never called you dirty. Why even insinuate that I did?

[Archaell]

If alex savage was different, then we have the same issue of casuals *needing* to see the story.

I wonder how hard would it be to introduce "storytelling". Basically an option to see cutscenes of another character. That way the casuals could see the story without having to step in the content.
(Unless of course "seeing the story" doesn't mean "getting the best loot".)