Tank Balance - Thordan EX 7-WAR 1-WHM Clear (Really SE?)

[ZanzhizExaverion]

this made me chuckle

It may be funny or a joke to you but it's true. PLD requires the least, DRK and WAR contend for being the most difficult to main tank in. OTing is all easy, but the problem lies in the fact that WAR, with a simple rotation with overloaded numbers can out DPS a BRD if he gets to full time hayday in Deliverance... and it is a problem because the Bard has to work his ass off, especially if he has to Paeon or Ballad.. to pull those numbers while the WAR doesn't have to do anything that demands mechanical prowess.

This is the problem I have with Warrior as a class.

[Exodus_Kenpachi]

I didn't say it, Xeno did. :P The rhetoric of your statement is annoyingly pervasive, and it almost carries an implication with it that DRK and PLD mains are less skilled players than WAR mains, and it further exacerbates that attitude that "PLD just needs to do WAR deeps".

Also WAR/PLD mains, stop trying to put/pull (respectively) DRK down to PLD's level in the spectrum of tank balance in relation to WAR. I'm so sick of my job being the "middle child" in between the cockfighting of the two original tanks, and I can't be the only DRK main that is annoyed by this. DRK is as well designed and functional as 90% of the other jobs in the game... DRG, MNK, WHM, etc all of which have benefits and flaws. A job like WAR with almost no flaws exceeding the standard through things like infinite TP does not render jobs meeting the standard as poor.

DrK does more DPS while MTing than a WAR does OTing.... Lets nerf DrK...

[Syzygian]

DrK does more DPS while MTing than a WAR does OTing.... Lets nerf DrK...

YES. 10char.

[Jpec07]

I'm reminded of stories from WoW where there was an all DK guild that was doing heroic progression content. People cried there about how it was an example of how OP DKs were, but really, it's just evidence of how the class had a really diverse set of tools that, when used with extreme precision, can be as effective as the tools provided by bringing a wide bevy of classes to the fore.

I think that, more than evidence of the OP status of WAR, this more shows the skill of the players involved.

Though WHM is kinda OP from a healing perspective atm.

*hides from FC healer*

[Brian_]

Based on the tokens I have, I farmed Thordan EX 44 times as of reset.

Since people here seem to be dodging the truth, I'll just state some facts.

Good WARs in Thordan EX pull maybe 80~90% of the DPS of good DPS. And that's with the necessity to actually tank. If you could just full-time DPS on Thordan EX, you would be even closer. The reality is for burst alone, WAR is better than most DPS classes. And, Thordan EX's design lines up very well with WAR burst windows. Phase 1 lines up really well with WAR's triple FC opener and ends soon after you hit your 5th FC. Phase 2 Lines up perfectly with a Berserk window. Phase 3 is again burst dependent. If you guess right as a WAR and pick the Sword Oath knight, you can easily kill it before the first oath switch and you'll only have to switch positions once. Phase 4 is again burst dependent with meteor DPSing. Again, things line up really well with WAR Berserk windows and job mechanics (being able to carry stacks from phase 3). Phase 5 you can open with your full triple FC opener which again perfectly ends shortly before gaze if you Berserk early during phase 4. Phase 6-9 are basically just striking dummy phases aside from the short periods of time certain people need to leave the boss to handle mechanics (p6 towers, p7 tether + divebomb, p8 chain + ice + comet).

You basically get perfect Berserk up-time with most of the Berserk down-time and pacification negated by phasing and mechanics. It's a really good fight for WAR DPS.

In my group, I basically pull DPS on par with our actual DPS in phase 1, better DPS in phase 2, worse DPS in phase 3 (because I have to actually tank), on par DPS in phase 4, and on par DPS in phase 5-9. And, we're an A4S progression group so our DPS reaches a certain benchmark.

What this means is that if you put together a decent group of WARs, they will probably vastly out-DPS a lot of mediocre raid groups. Is it some bar to judge that WARs are OP? No. PLDs are vastly better than DRKs in Thordan EX. I guess PLDs are perfectly fine as tanks by the same reasoning? It doesn't work that way.

[HyperiusUltima]

PLDs are vastly better than DRKs in Thordan EX. I guess PLDs are perfectly fine as tanks by the same reasoning? It doesn't work that way.

Well, while this is true, SE is to blame for creating fights that aren't fit for the class, forcing overgearing(i.e. Alexander Savage vs. PLD). It's all depending on the damage going out that can decide which tank to bring. Physical Damage? Bring a PLD to block and mitigate that damage more easily with things like Sheltron and Bulwark. Magic Damage? Bring the DRK to use DA Dark Mind to mitigate it even more. It comes down to how SE creates the fights and deciding which tank has the limelight.

As for design decisions, I can understand PLD being extremely clunky due to their Heavensward abilities(and some of their abilities in ARR) not synergizing very well(the only exception being SS due to the oGCD buff it recently received).

For WARs, the community believes them to be the 'top tier tank' mainly due to the shift in the end-game raid meta. Equilibrium does so much to alleviate their TP concerns when abusing OP, but what about Flash+OP? WARs weren't really designed to use MP in the first place, but they were given a reason to use it with PLD Flash due to it reducing the amount of TP they had to use from before(which was 1/4th or more of their TP Gauge). This leaves Equilibrium to be used freely for a free 200 TP a minute that the other tanks have to ask for(DRK can use Unmend for such when required), or in PLD's case have to suffer until either Goad or the Spire are used.

[Reynhart]

Well, while this is true, SE is to blame for creating fights that aren't fit for the class, forcing overgearing(i.e. Alexander Savage vs. PLD). It's all depending on the damage going out that can decide which tank to bring. Physical Damage? Bring a WAR. Magic Damage? Bring a WAR

Oh, and the community doesn't believe WAR is the top tier tank due to the shift in the meta...WAR is the top tier tank due to the shift in the meta.

[wicked-one]

Had Thordan Yestreday via PF, and after the 1st Tankbuster it was.

1st DPS was me
between, long nothing.
2nd was equally on the OT Warrior and DRG with an i180 weapon on ~ 1000 dps

the other 2 dps were bards with i200 and i190 weapons with no mentionable dps...

[Jpec07]

Oh, and the community doesn't believe WAR is the top tier tank due to the shift in the meta...WAR is the top tier tank due to the shift in the meta.

Has been since they were buffed in 2.x, iirc. I keep hearing that they did the maths to prove that WAR mitigates more than PLD while also dealing more damage. This is exacerbated by abilities in HW that allow Warrior OT DPS to top pure DPS job numbers in certain periods of combat, while PLD is still mediocre at best. DRK is doing okay, though, by my understanding, because they have the highest MT DPS.

[Februs]

I'm reminded of stories from WoW where there was an all DK guild that was doing heroic progression content.

The thing is, this isn't a new concept even for FFXIV. I don't know about you guys or your respective servers, but "Pure Tank" groups have been around for a while on my server. They aren't common, and I've seen a lot less of them these days (T4 mount farms excluded), but they were very common back when Titan Ex and T5 were still considered "gateway fights," which I think is when I first heard about them. The were kind of considered the "cheap way" of clearing gateway content.

I remember farming T6 when the party picked up a guy who consistently took avoidable dmg and ate the paste a few times, because he couldn't seem to dodge. After a run or two, one of the healers got pissed off and asked him in frustration about how the heck he managed to clear T5 when he was this lousy. His response was "we used 6 (could have been 7, but I don't remember) tanks." I think a few of our jaws hit the floor, because most of us had never even considered the idea before.

Now, that's not to say he didn't legitimately clear. His group would have still had to follow mechs (DB's in T5, for example, can not be skipped), but the way he made it sound was that the margin for error was much greater with a group of tanks. Chip dmg would have been nothing to worry about, so mechs like Titan Ex's bombs, for example, could be shield and healed without too much fuss, and anything that required dodging (like Titan's WoL's) were much less threatening. You wouldn't get insta-killed by them as a tank, and the strain on the healers would be much less. So, suddenly, all you had to worry about was the big mechs that would instantly wipe the raid.

The problem (at least the problem my group had with him at the time) was that this guy might have cleared the gateway fight, but he didn't have the same kind of experience dodging and working in a tightly coordinated group. He didn't even realize the kind of trouble he was putting the healers through. Suffice to say, he got the boot relatively quickly.

At the time, I didn't really give it much thought, but now I'm kind of curious about it. I never ran with a pure tank group, so I don't know how tight the Dps checks would have been back during ilvl 90. I'm curious if these groups were always made up of all War's, or if they had some Pld's mixed in as well...