What do you think of Ala Mhigo?

[IrisBlanchimont]

Radz-at-han is a city in Thavnaria iirc.

It's the local city-state there. That location, or the Sharlayan islands, would be way more interesting locations to base an expansion around than Ala Mhigo.

[Belhi]

Except that Rhalgr is a god, so he's a being of faith in the first place, shaped by people's beliefs. So actually, it is the true Rhalgr, just like beastmen tribe primals are their "true" selves, too

That's a rather flawed logic. We don't know the true nature of the Twelve. Its perfectly possible that they could get by fine without any worshipers. Your assuming it was worshippers faith that made them exist when it could be their existence that lead to them being worshiped. We haven't had any confirmation on that. Further since we seem to see Primals as 'False Gods' that would suggest there is such a thing as a 'True God'.

This again ignores the irregularities that several Eikons display. Who worships the Triad? Primals as we know them need worship to be sustained. Who worships Odin?

[IrisBlanchimont]

Snip.

We know that the Twelve can be summoned with the same method as Primals. While the Eorzeans believe the Twelve to be 'true gods', thus deeming the beastmen primals as 'false gods', the idea that in order for a worshiped being to be a false god a true god must exist is a huge misconception about the nature of truth. As for Odin and the Triad, the Loremongers here have typically made a distinction in the way 'Elder Primals" and regular primals function. See the "Dark Divinity" discussions we've had for a deep exploration of those questions you raised.

That said, the closest to a deity we've encountered is probably Zodiark and Hydealyn.

[Belhi]

We know that the Twelve can be summoned with the same method as Primals. While the Eorzeans believe the Twelve to be 'true gods', thus deeming the beastmen primals as 'false gods', the idea that in order for a worshiped being to be a false god a true god must exist is a huge misconception about the nature of truth. As for Odin and the Triad, the Loremongers here have typically made a distinction in the way 'Elder Primals" and regular primals function. See the "Dark Divinity" discussions we've had for a deep exploration of those questions you raised.

That said, the closest to a deity we've encountered is probably Zodiark and Hydealyn.

Except that one example of an Elder primal that we know about, Bahumat, did function effectively as a normal primal. The point is that we probably only have a very basic understanding of the nature of primals and Eikons and their relationship.

Further, if someone used a summoning ritual to summon one of the twelve, what appeared would be a primal but that doesn't mean its actually one of the Twelve. Bahumat wasn't actually the real Bahumat. It was a False representation of him created by the minds of the summoners.

Likewise the Beasttribe primals quite likely have real origins but most likely almost none of them are the original source of the legend of the God. There was almost certainly something that was once called Bismarck but we cant be sure what it is. Garuda very likely was a historical figure, maybe even an Allagan or Chimera (which would explain the human/birdlike appearance the Ixali conjured). Ravana sounds like he was an ancient legendary Gnath hero. There was quite likely once an ancient mighty sea serpent that inspired Leviathan.

However, just like Shiva and Bahamut, the Primal is just a false copy of the real thing. Likewise, the twelve could be originals. Till we have any true evidence on the nature of the twelve, its very much speculation. There are too many outliers and unexplained instances for us to call it for sure.

One other thing I would note on the twelve is they have an interesting correlation with the elements. Twelve gods with all paired into elemental catagories with one holding an umbral and one holding an astral nature. The twelve might not exactly be what we think they are but I wouldn't be surprised if they are or were part of the worlds natural balance, particularly since the place they are worshipped, Eorzea, is the Aetheric centre of Hydealyn.

[IrisBlanchimont]

The twelve might not exactly be what we think they are but I wouldn't be surprised if they are or were part of the worlds natural balance, particularly since the place they are worshipped, Eorzea, is the Aetheric centre of Hydealyn.

Correlation does not imply causation. Consider how our own deities came to be: we see the sun move across the sky and assume a god caused it to do so. So we later decide that clearly a god does it because our explanation makes so much sense. And the moon must be a god as well, because of the nature of balance. Consider also that the Final Fantasy series very rarely, if ever, has a popular religion in its series that is true.

Considering these things, its as likely if not more likely that the Twelve are a product of twelve months per year, six elements and Eorzeans loce of astral and umbral dynamics. There is absolutely no reason to believe the Twelve are any different from the primals we figt constantly.

[Kaiser-Ace]

Correlation does not imply causation. Consider how our own deities came to be: we see the sun move across the sky and assume a god caused it to do so. So we later decide that clearly a god does it because our explanation makes so much sense. And the moon must be a god as well, because of the nature of balance. Consider also that the Final Fantasy series very rarely, if ever, has a popular religion in its series that is true.

Considering these things, its as likely if not more likely that the Twelve are a product of twelve months per year, six elements and Eorzeans loce of astral and umbral dynamics. There is absolutely no reason to believe the Twelve are any different from the primals we figt constantly.

I think the origin of the 12 is likely that they were the heros who tried to stop the 1st Umbral Era and that when they "Left" Eorzea it was likly their deaths that lead to that. That The Original Twelve were simply mortal heroes like us and that, upon failing to stop the 1st Umbral Era, died and faded into legend. Eventually becoming powerful gods that abandoned the physical world during the 1st Calamity in the time before time.

This would almost explain why summoning them would simply make primals and why they seem to never act nor do they seem to fit properly with Hydaelyn's existence or Midguardsormr's arival on the planet. They weren't actually Gods but simply the very first Warriors of Light from a time when Hydaelyn's power was still 100% and the first crystals of light had God Like Powers.

As they say, all myths have some basis in reality.

[Atoli]

I didn't want to go too much in-depth because it's gonna borderline on insulting rl religions and that's just never a good thing in an internet forum xD

In general, religions are based on someone telling a story about something he couldn't explain with anything but "it must have been a higher being!". That's why most religions stem from a time when we still had no explanations for most natural phenomenons.
Now I'm not trying to say all religions are fake and there is no god, but can we at least agree that humanity is what shaped religion and it's stories and views mostly?
Sure, you could say the old-time Greeks and Romans totally encountered their gods on a daily basis and that's why they knew them all so well, their personality traits and relationships and who made babies with who and the like.
It's probably more likely though that someone had a vivid dream and a lot of charisma and that's how the whole thing got started. In that case, there wouldn't be "real", "original" gods. All they are IS the belief in them. In the magical realm of Eorzea, beliefs can take form, contrary to the real world. So that belief IS their god, no "real" version behind it, since it's source of existance IS the belief of the people forming it.
There is no "real" Ifrit or Ramuh either hidden behind a miss-led summon. What they summon is actually their god, since - like I said before - gods are something shaped by their followers anyway.
In 1.0, I thought the Twelve are different from Primal gods, but us summoning them pretty much the same way made me throw that assumption out the window.

I guess for now this discussion comes down to two things:
1. if you believe in there being something "real" behind religions in general
2. waiting for confirmation of Eorzea having actual, real gods that exist seperately from people believing in them or not.

(@Odin & Triad: Odin got a lengthy explanation by Urianger, basically he got sealed to his sword, so as long as that one isn't destroyed, he doesn't need followers or anything. Triad will probably get a lot more focus in the next patch.)

[seekified]

To be honest, the Ala Mhigan refugee situation in Ul'dah reminds me a fair bit of what Europe is experiencing right now. It ain't easy for anyone involved.

Personally I really want to go to Ala Mhigo because of the older parts of its lore, the lancers and a chance to finally trash some empire butt again.

[Frederick22]

snip

Maybe they stoped Zordiark?

[Yuyuka3]

They weren't actually Gods but simply the very first Warriors of Light from a time when Hydaelyn's power was still 100% and the first crystals of light had God Like Powers.

You know what bugs me about the entire 'Chrystals of Light were much more powerful in the past'-thing? If that's true, and if we assume that the Warriors of Light appeared in each Umbral Era plus Hydaelyn getting weaker and weaker, then how does it fit that we are so overpowered in the eyes of the Ascians that we encroach upon the gods (possibly the first WoL after your theory)? Shouldn't they know even stronger ones than us from the past? Or are we outliers in that we are, for some strange reason, stronger than what we should be? It sounds like the last one in the MSQ, but why?

On the topic of Ala Mhigo - not a big fan of it, honestly. Too warlike for my taste, and too selfcentered.