Suggestion - Paladin Identity and new stance?

[Reynhart]

Ok, you know what, I'm tired of you just misinterpreting everything.

First, brez is STUPID.
Second, PLD already requires CNJ in this game.
Third, if BLM could cast Meteor by themselves, it would only do damage tied to their stat, what would you gain from it ?
Fourth, where did you take that Cure III was always an AoE ? It seems you seriously lack real knowledge of the series.

Moreover, if you couldn't read properly "healing-PLD as an OT", I'm starting to wonder how you manage to write that many posts. And Shield Oath would still be there for when you have to MT...
Sorry, 2 stances is maybe too much to grasp...
And finally, do you even play your WHM 60 to pretend that two single-target-non-instant-cast-no-status-removal-no-healing-on-time healers can keep a whole raid alive ? My highest healer job is only 50 and even I could see the obvious flaw of solely relying on PLDs to keep the party afloat...without realizing, again, that you still need one tank to MT with Shield Oath.

[Yhximott]

I love the idea of having a mechanic that breaks free of the corner SE has painted the painfully simplistic battle systems into. DPS is king, and because it's king everyone wanted more, and because we got more, the bosses got more health and DPS checks became EVEN more important. On and on it goes.

The arguments thus far:
- "PLD as a durable emergency healer would affect the battle system in an unfamiliar way. I.E. potency based "squishy wipes" would no longer be as intimidating."
Sounds good. Do it. Straying from the idea that DPS checks are the only thing worth being concerned about might finally encourage SE to start coming up with mechanics that are actually interesting and fun. A4S already has a method that circumvents mechanics by sacrificing 3 party members, and it is absolutely beautiful.

- "Tank with a heal stance would reduce raid DPS."
The OT would still be doing DPS, and you can replace the second healer with another DPS if you're a strong team. Again, more power to the defiant. Change it up. WAR is already a supplemental DPS as OT, and in that regard much more of an asset than PLD. In the hypothetical example, even if the HealPLD were doing 0 DPS because the strain of being down one actual healer, it would be made up for by the presence of an additional DPS. Tomato, Tomahto. Point is, if PLD can't be made into a supplemental DPS on par with WAR, then there's no reason for it not to be given a supplemental utility of some other form.

- "Everything is fine the way it is. Stop complaining. If you change PLD in any way it'll make it too good."
So what I hear with all these arguments is: "I personally have no problem with it because PLD's utility is irrelevant to me. I thrive with the current system. I'm scared PLD will go from being the least useful to being the most useful and kick me off my throne." The reason this is an issue in the first place is again, because DPS is king in this game, and PLD doesn't stack up as MT or OT. If SE hadn't made the mistake of making DPS the only viable measure of your worth in the first place, it wouldn't be a discussion now.

[winsock]

First, brez is STUPID.
Second, PLD already requires CNJ in this game.

And no one can brez with it in this game

It seems you seriously lack real knowledge of the series.

You know you have the option to make it hit everyone right?

Moreover, if you couldn't read properly "healing-PLD as an OT"

Lol, pls explain how this would work at all in A1S and A2S? You're still going to be benched.

Sorry, 2 stances is maybe too much to grasp...
...
without realizing, again, that you [B]still need one tank to MT with Shield Oath

I lol'd when I read this. MT is irrelevant, cause you'll only be tanking the bench or is that "too much to grasp".

[Reynhart]

Cure III should always hit your entire party.

You know you have the option to make it hit everyone right?

Sorry, I don't have time for basic semantics lesson...

Lol, pls explain how this would work at all in A1S and A2S? You're still going to be benched.

Ok, now I know you definitely doesn't read what I write and just make your own discussion...

And, also, this setup would be more efficient when you have only one real Main Tank, like A4. The usual "two tanks / two healers" would still be favored for some content.

I lol'd when I read this. MT is irrelevant, cause you'll only be tanking the bench or is that "too much to grasp".

Ladies and genleman, our great paragon of balance !
...
Seriously, go talk with yourself, let the grown-ups do the suggestions here.

[winsock]

Seriously, go talk with yourself, let the grown-ups do the suggestions here.

^ attack the person rather than the issues.

I gave an example earlier of why I would balance brez the way SE does now.

You obviously can't come up with any reasoning based on gameplay balance to give PLD brez. You could just be like "hmm, I never thought about it that way before"

But instead you respond to several of my posts that I just ignored you on. You kept pushing and now have the argument you wanted, but you can't come up with an answer so you attack me directly. That's very 'grown up' of you Mr 'grown up'.

[Reynhart]

^ attack the person rather than the issues.

It's the person, who just ignores every answer.


In case you didn't realize, this is an awnswer:

I believe every class/job that can use raise souldn't be blocked by an inconsistent trait.

This is also an answer :

if someone decided to go into a level 50- content as a class (not a job), to be able to cross-class Raise (and maybe Swiftcast) and use it, sure, go for it.

And this is also an answer:

No, not every job should be able to use Raise in battle...because not every job is able to cross-class it. But every class should be able to if they chose so and if they were ready to sacrifice everything that their job offers to stay a class.

If you think my answer will change because you ask the same question multiple times, they you really are just a kid.

On the other hand you come with absurb examples of why it would be "overpowered", and why it would "break the balance"...without any explanation of what you think balance is.
While ignoring the reality of the game on what PLD can already do without "breaking the balance", or what WHM can do "without breaking the balance". (Should healers automatically die if they're the last man stading, because they could save the whole PT after everyone messed up ?)
Then, you put thoughts in my head, and probably feel pretty smart about it, about how I didn't think of some content, when I clearly said otherwise...
And finally, after fighting over your so precious balance, still without any explanation of what that is, you just admit that you couldn't care less about what to do with PLD.

And I think the best part is when you fear that 2 PLD could replace 2 WHM, further implying that you just have no idea of what a WHM can really do...

[winsock]

In case you didn't realize, this is an awnswer:

This is also an answer :

And this is also an answer:

What you're not understanding is that there is a difference between "brez balance" and "PLD balance".

Saying something like "brez shouldn't be tied to a trait" does not have any "balance" justification. The only thing that you've said that answers "why should PLD be allowed to brez?" is that PLD can brez in other games. You want this solely for lore-based reasons.

SE went out of their way to make sure PLD couldn't brez, even creating duplicates of the skill and trait. It makes sense to not allow PLD to brez.

[Reynhart]

What you're not understanding is that there is a difference between "brez balance" and "PLD balance".

No, there's not, because :

• Unless you change the requirement for jobs, PLD is the only physical job that can cross-class CNJ skills.
  Why SE decided that they can ? Because standard PLD is able to cast White Magic. Sorry to pop your bubble, but if you want a PLD that has nothing to do with Final Fantasy standards, maybe you shouldn't play a Final Fantasy game. I suppose you're upset that BLM uses only 3 elements, or that people who fight with spears have the uncanny ability to jump really high...
• Roles are so strongly defined than no job can bring a job on a different role to be totally rejected.
  Wether or not PLD could take care of healing the main tank, WHM, SCH and AST will still have their spot in every setup. And let me remind you that the number of healers is vastly inferior to the amount of parties that need them (In case the long queuing time waiting for one wasn't enough clue).
  Healers must really feel insecure to think that...how lucky we are that tanks did not react that way when the "solo tank" strat became a thing...

Saying something like "brez shouldn't be tied to a trait" does not have any "balance" justification.

Why are Arcanist, Summoners and Scholars able to raise in combat in Toto-Rak, Halatali and Ifrit normal (Where you are always in combat) whereas CNJ and WHM can't ? Especially when two of them are DPS.

SE went out of their way to make sure PLD couldn't brez, even creating duplicates of the skill and trait. It makes sense to not allow PLD to brez.

Which is totally useless since nobody can cross-class AST, so their trait is even less justified. It's probably why it's at a lower level than Resurrection...

And again, you're still saying something is unbalanced without giving any thought on what is "balance". I'd like to know what your definition is.

[Brannigan]

I want Esuna. Also a faster, uninterruptable Clemency that doesn't break combos. Hell, Holy Succor in 1.0 had a 2 sec cast time and didn't break combos and that game was wayyyyy slower. Please do not quote every sentence of this post and reply to each of them because I will not read your response.

[winsock]

And again, you're still saying something is unbalanced without giving any thought on what is "balance". I'd like to know what your definition is.

I did answer answer how and why I believed that currently brez is balanced, but it wasnt in a discussion I was having with you so no worries. I can elaborate a bit on it too which couldnt hurt.

First a bit on what brez is:
* brez essentially defines the "point of no return" for a party
* The most powerful recovery ability

^ these are what I believe to be the most important factors when considering the balance of brez as it relates to gameplay.

Point of No Return
Brez is only available to the squishiest party members. If the group fails hard enough to get the squishies killed, the party itself cant recover.
^ you can tell SE put thought into balancing this. What this does is ensure squishy players arent at a disadvantage solely because of their squishiness. If they die, the rest of the party is likely soon to follow, so parties need to ensure they clear mechanics with enough leeway to give the squishiest party members a chance to survive the mechanic as well.

Would you agree that equal opportunity of surviving party mechanics is in favor of balance in terms of gameplay?

I feel obligated to leave this here. Part of a dev Q&A during Live Letter XXV:

Q: Are there plans to make adjustments to items that users don’t use very often such as medicine like phoenix down...?

A: Hayashi: ...we can’t allow for a situation where the battle balance is ruined by items like phoenix down, which has a raise effect...

A great example of something that should brez by your requirements a.k.a. lore, but isnt allowed because of balance issues.

The most powerful recovery ability
Imma need to cut to the chase here as im running out of time, but we can talk more in-depth here if something doesnt sit right with you. I assume we agree that powerful skills should be offset by another cost? Penalties are placed on the target of the person you res; and for the castor: MP cost and difficulty hardcasting are the major penalties.
I said earlier that it makes sense for squishies to have brez, but the fact that umbral ice and various wards make these penalties near non-existent on BLM, it makes sense that BLM cant brez.

Now PLD: Doesnt care as much/if at all if standing in AoE during hardcast. Doesnt really rely on MP to function. Very little cost to PLD as well.