Suggestion - Paladin Identity and new stance?

[Malicewolf]

Raise is useable, just not during combat. There are situations that can occur where it would be useful for PLD to cast raise out of combat, most involve party members doing something stupid, but there are at least circumstances where it is beneficial. A WHM should never cast Physick or Ruin.

WAR is preferred over PLD bc it can meet the survivability requires of endgame while dealing more dmg. How is brez remotely a step in the right direction for solving this issue? Lol you'd be better off with that 400 potency thing from earlier.

What?! Just. No. Sure, that random downed guy in the middle of the map for taking something on they shouldn't of really appreciates the occasional PLD carrying around raise to get them up. But want to know what's not that hard as well? Clicking that teleport button and then teleporting back to where you were if you need to be there. VERY often, the person who's dead waits longer for a res than it would of taken for them to just return and teleport back. As was said by Kosmos as well, it's faster to just switch classes if you don't already have Raise on your cross class (and for them to wait for you to do such, it would once again be quicker for them to teleport out and run back ironically). I know you were arguing this for arguments sake. Please stop doing that.

We have all said MANY times over the course of this topic, we aren't looking to be another WAR and push out more DPS. This is a step that we're looking at for more situational utility that will give us a separate and individual identity. We have an identity we can't explore because the game limits us form being able to.
They basically push healing and support on us, but then don't let us use it.

Yes, we realize every class has some crappy cross class skills. Ruin will never be a good cross class skill. Skull sunder will never be a good cross class skill. Savage blade will never be a good cross class skill. We get it. We get that some cross classes have multiple that aren't useful. Arcanist physick and ruin are both useless to a WHM or a BLM. We know. But Virus and Eye for an Eye have good use and CAN be utilized. CNJ cross class skills for a PLD cannot be utilized because of the fact that this game doesn't allow the cross class between magic use and physical use. What if WHM was connected to a gladiator instead?
Imagine a WHM's reaction if they saw their available cross class skills for that.

Savage blade - wtf? I can't use that!
Flash - oh lordy! Why would I WANT enmity?!
Convalescence - Uh, I guess not bad. I mean, i'll heal myself better. Whoop whoop.
Provoke - WTF! I don't want Odin Senpai to notice me!!
Awareness - Uh. Sure. Why not.

And then let's say THM stayed as their other cross class. So in effect, you'd have surecast, blizzard II and swiftcast available to you now. Now you're sitting there going, uh. I'm having a tough time picking what cross class skills to use because the last 3 picks seem useless to me. Other than Surecast and swiftcast, everything else is... subpar. Maybe convalescence. Doesn't hurt. uh, i guess blizzard II incase enemy mobs come at me? It won't help... but, i guess it won't hurt. Damn, too bad i don't get that umbral ice boost. Uh, now what filler should I use? Guess awareness... for that rare chance where I get attacked by a mob that's going to crit hit me a lot. I'm sure this will be handy. Or maybe flash. I'll blind them.... at the cost of gaining their attention. What could go wrong? *sarcasm*

You could switch it with Marauder.

Foresight - Oh, I could use that for when tank loses enmity to me.
Skull sunder - What?
Fracture - DoT, yay. Oh. I have to whack them with my cane to use it... nvm.
Bloodbath - uh. Sure?
Mercy Stroke - Yay! 20% hp back! Oh. Cane whack again. And it'll barely do any dmg with my stats. USELESS!

Lancer perhaps?

Feint - Ok, another close quarter cane whack. But at least it'll slow them.
Keen flurry - I'm sure parrying will work great while I cast magic. Should be as useful as my shield. Oh wait.
Invigorate - Oh boy. I can recover from sprint quicker.
Blood for blood - not bad.

I understand WHM also has some pretty cruddy cross class skills, but it could be worse. You could get nothing out of one of your cross classes (like PLD's).

[Kosmos992k]

Oh, and by the way

What did the other jobs receive when WHM was granted a new Stoneskin at level 50 ?

In fairness, StoneSkin 2 is nothing more than a QoL upgrade for StoneSkin casting. granting it to WHM should not merit any gifts for other jobs, the ability of the WHM to cast SS on everyone in the party at once is sufficient reward for the others.

Damned daily posting limits....

Apparently, à QoL that only WHM deserve.

Well, on the flip side we lost GraniteSkin as WHM, so StoneSkin 2 kind of makes up for that a bit...

[Reynhart]

In fairness, StoneSkin 2 is nothing more than a QoL upgrade for StoneSkin casting. granting it to WHM should not merit any gifts for other jobs, the ability of the WHM to cast SS on everyone in the party at once is sufficient reward for the others.

Apparently, à QoL that only WHM deserve.

[Februs]

I understand WHM also has some pretty cruddy cross class skills, but it could be worse. You could get nothing out of one of your cross classes (like PLD's).

It's actually an ongoing joke in my FC that Pld's have "O type" blood.They are the universal donor in FFXIV. They hand out skills to many... but can't really take anything useful from anyone. Hell, some Pld skills are pretty much essential for other tanks to even tank higher end content. All tanks need Provoke. Warriors use flash as a Tp conservation skill for Mob aggro (usually as a, "whoops, I accidentally used Overpower too much" move). "Awareness" has more utility for Wars (especially with the addition of Raw intuition) than it ever had for Pld's. Convalescence is damn amazing for any tank (Wars, in particular, get the most benefit because it stacks with Defiance).... the list goes on.

What do Pld's get in return? Um... Fracture? I guess. That's good for melee dmg and shares a CD with Convalescence, so... why not? Mercy strike? Sure... a tiny increase in dps never hurt anyone... (well, it does by definition, but you know what I mean) Stone skin? Definitely. Self buffing is always nice, especially if you have lazy healers who refuse to buff you ... like, ever. Protect? uh... well... I guess. Healer would have to be REALLY lazy to not use that one though. Cure? Yup. For those moments when you run out of TP and literally have nothing else to do

It's not to say that Pld's get zero utility out of their cross class skills. Stoneskin, in particular, used to be essential for making fights with high dmg'ing cleaves (like T5 or 9) go more smoothly without draining your healers Mp pool, especially when they were still cutting edge content, and Fracture is kinda okay for auto attack mitigation... kinda... but those are two moves. More than 50% of my cross class skills could be empty slots and it wouldn't make a difference to my rotation or dmg mitigation.

Give Give Give.... and never take.

[winsock]

No, not every job should be able to use Raise in battle...because not every job is able to cross-class it.
But every class should be able to if they chose so and if they were ready to sacrifice everything that their job offers to stay a class.

^ just to point out, that no job can crossclass brez. What things do you take into consideration with balancing brez in general? For example, if you're at SE, the game is currently in development, crossclass skills arent a thing yet, and you're tasked with deciding who should and shouldnt receive brez, who does it go to and why?

The reason I ask is because i'd like to know your opinion on how brez should be balanced in general. SE could give anyone brez if they wanted to, who should receive it?

What did the other jobs receive when WHM was granted a new Stoneskin at level 50 ?

Not having to wait for the healers to cast stoneskin over and over again in some scenarios just to get the fighting started lol.

To be fair
PLD, AST, and SCH did receive proshell.
We lost 18% stoneskin.

Your turn now.

As I was saying before, there are things I really dont like about my idea and as such, im not trying to sell it or say that "this is the way you fix pld!!11!!11". I will say, the balance issue with PLD is pretty complicated. But since you're curious as to what I think about it, my initial thoughts were:

* it probably shouldnt be a direct dps increase , can probably be fixed without one, and not increasing its dps directly keeps it very different from WAR.
* it should probably increase party dps to make up for its lack of dps.
* the party dps increase shouldnt be able to surpass WAR.
* it would be cool if VIT were a thing.

What I came up with was a change to block mechanics, where blocking applies a debuff to the target that lowers their dmg resistance. The strength of the debuff scaled with VIT, and the duration of the debuff was relative to the type of shield being used (high block rate = lower duration).

The pros to something like this that I saw:
* VIT could be a thing.
* if PLD could pull similar numbers to WAR in this way while taking VIT, the QoL improvement from the VIT would be a reason to take a PLD to MT, but certainly wouldnt not prevent a WAR being an effective MT.
* it would let PLD contribute to AoE dmg, while not really increasing the PLD's AoE dps.

Obvious cons:
* Pigeon-holes a PLD into Main-Tanking bosses with physical dmg, which sucks cause PLD has quite a bit of utility for an offtank.
* PLD still benched for magic bosses.

[winsock]

What if WHM was connected to a gladiator instead?

Depends on what was lost / how it was lost. Would suck if WHM lost THM as it kinda needs swiftcast to ensure it's competitive with SCH/AST. If they lost Swiftcast as well, it wouldnt matter as much. If WHM lost ACN, it wouldn't be earthshattering at all. E4E is very good, but certainly not required and limited to targets that deal some sort of physical dmg. Virus is pretty limited on WHM as is. Then of course, Ruin + Physick are worthless.

We'd def pick up Convalescence and Awareness.

We have an identity we can't explore because the game limits us form being able to.
They basically push healing and support on us, but then don't let us use it.

Stoneskin, Clemency, Cover, and Divine Veil are definitely usable right now.
You also cant expect the identity of PLD to stay 100% consistent across all final fantasy games for balance reasons. While you might be able to get away with class/job creation based on lore, balancing gameplay based on lore can be a very bad thing.

I understand WHM also has some pretty cruddy cross class skills, but it could be worse. You could get nothing out of one of your cross classes (like PLD's).

I completely agree that many PLD crossclass options are pretty terrible. I'm with ya on that. To say they get nothing is a little extreme.

I dont really see this as a "PLD issue", but its certainly an issue with the crossclass system.
For example, cure and raise are just as worthless to PLD as they are to everyone else who can crossclass them.
Protect and Stoneskin deliver the same levels of mitigation per application by PLD, as they do on everyone else who can crossclass them.

[Reynhart]

For example, if you're at SE, the game is currently in development, crossclass skills arent a thing yet, and you're tasked with deciding who should and shouldnt receive brez, who does it go to and why?

I'd give Raise to every healing class, and immediatly usable in combat without requiring a trait.

Not having to wait for the healers to cast stoneskin over and over again in some scenarios just to get the fighting started lol.

We're still waiting for MNK to build 5 chakra, and SCH to score a critical shield before the pull...or the casting time of summoning...

PLD, AST, and SCH did receive proshell. We lost 18% stoneskin.

Which, for me, was a bad idea.

I will say, the balance issue with PLD is pretty complicated.

To make PLD as good as other tanks, yes. But anything you give to PLD that don't automatically kick DRK or WAR out is "within" balance.

* it probably shouldnt be a direct dps increase , can probably be fixed without one, and not increasing its dps directly keeps it very different from WAR.

Agreed

* it should probably increase party dps to make up for its lack of dps.

Problem is, WAR already has a DPS increase for party, with the slashing debuff. That's why I think that allowing a setup with one additionnal DPS is a more interesting way of doing it.

* the party dps increase shouldnt be able to surpass WAR.

Surpass, no, but equals. Since DPS is the most important part of winning in current high end content, a party must be able to do the same overall DPS with any tank.

What I came up with was a change to block mechanics, where blocking applies a debuff to the target that lowers their dmg resistance.

You naturally came with the obvious cons, which are already what left the PLD behind the other. So unless you allow PLD to block magic or to block when off-tanking, it won't really change anything.

So, in fact, the idea of a healing stance that would allow PLD to keep the main tank alive and bring one more DPS for one less healer fits with your description.
And a change for Sheltron to become an "AoE block" (And block magic, like in the benchmark) would also help, and be usable as an OT.

[winsock]

I'd give Raise to every healing class, and immediatly usable in combat without requiring a trait.

Original Question:
"What things do you take into consideration with balancing brez in general? For example, if you're at SE, the game is currently in development, crossclass skills arent a thing yet, and you're tasked with deciding who should and shouldnt receive brez, who does it go to and why?"
You havent answered this. I assume you're counting PLD as a healing class in that description. In terms gameplay balance of brez, "why" would you give it to them as opposed to anyone else?

So, in fact, the idea of a healing stance that would allow PLD to keep the main tank alive and bring one more DPS for one less healer fits with your description.

No, it wouldnt.
The dps from 2-5-1 would surpass the dps from the standard 2-4-2. The PLD contribute would allow it to surpass WAR contribution and that would lock PLD into elitist groups, which is something you want to avoid. Remember, proshell was made a part of protect to avoid locking WHM into groups.

[Reynhart]

You havent answered this.

Ok, it's really getting annoying that you dismiss all my answers.
FIRST, I wouldn't make a "battle" Raise. Just a Raise. This difference is stupid.
SECOND, if cross-classing is not a thing yet for a game "in development", then Jobs aren't either. So I'd give Raise to every healing class. So, no Arcanist.
THIRD, when cross-classing become a thing, I'd open Raise to cross-classing regardless of classes. After all, if everybody takes Raise, it means they're keeping a slot away from most useful skill for their role.
FOURTH, when jobs become a thing, with a composite class requirement, I'd give CNJ as a requirement for PLD, since, in most FF games, PLD (Or Knight in Japanese) is able to cast some healing magic. And the same for SCH. (In the current game, it's not as if SCH doesn't have any room to cross-class Raise...)

Is that enough for you ?

Ok, let's look at your 2-5-1 and 2-4-2.
First, in both these setup, you have the same 4 DPS and the same MT. So, you just need to compare 1-1-1 to 1-0-2.
Second, in the usual setup, PLD OT does damage, and in most case the healers manages to do some too. In the new setup, the PLD will mainly focus on healing, so, its DPS would be really low. And the healer will also be focused on healing the raid and casting some Esuna and HoT on the MT, so its dps will also be decreased.

For example (Numbers not accurate): Let's gives values for rank of DPS.
In the first setup, let's say the DPS count for 1, PLD OT count for 0.6 and both healers count for 0.3. Total 2.2
In the second setup, the DPS still count for 1 (But they're two), healer-PLD greatly decreases its DPS, so, instead of 0.6, we'll give him a 0.2. And the only healer is 100% focused on healing, so he'll count for 0. Total 2.2.
And again, the rest of the team stays the same, regardless of the setup, so their numbers don't matter.

Yes, in the current state of the game these numbers can be different, but they could be adjusted to stay within acceptable range.

[winsock]

Is that enough for you ?

So... correct me if im misinterpreting this... but you're entire justification for giving PLD brez is:

It could do it in other games and its not as useful in this one?

Well then if that's all it takes to balance things:
No skills should have cooldowns, that's just silly. you cant use them when theyre on cooldown, and in other games it wasnt a thing

BLMs should be able to cast Meteor whenever they want/have the mp for it. It's silly to give them a spell they cant use and tie it to that limit break meter.

Cure III should always hit your entire party.

PLD doesnt need all these attack skills and defensive cooldowns. It should just have 1 atk option that it spams repeatedly until it decides it wants to cast something.

Yes, in the current state of the game these numbers can be different, but they could be adjusted to stay within acceptable range.

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I still dont see how you could realistically do this.
For something like A1S, you might need to drop your dps by ~15%, which is reasonable.
But 2 other problems here:
Your position as a tank could make cast range problematic.
Being able to MT + heal is completely unbalanced in 4mans.

For something like A3S or A4S, your dps would need to drop by ~90%. For perspective, healers deal about 50% less dps in A3S/A4S as compared to A1S.
Even if you could construct PLD heals in a way that allowed PLD to take such a massive drop in dps by healing, you certainly wouldnt be able to MT while doing it, which pigeon-holes it into offtanking. And if you dropped HPS that much, I'd question whether or not PLD could have enough hps for when dmg picks up.

And of course, how do you prevent going 2-6 and completely screwing all healers as opposed to just screwing half of them?