Suggestion - Paladin Identity and new stance?

[Shurrikhan]

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Sorry for being so late to reply, Kosmos. I lost it among the different threads I was going through, and this one's filling out so quickly (largely mine and Reynhart's doing...). Part of my criticism, as you would probably expect, was due to my own frustrations at certain 'ships having long since sailed' in regards to role homogeneity, but I assure you there is a logic to it as well (or at least so I convince myself); we only have what possibilities the state of the game, and its undermechanics, allow. I'm sure once you math things out, you could find a decent balance for what you want, I just do have to caution you again to do so. There's nothing like a good idea gone sour because it lacked the fine details. Your Healing Stance should be able to basically include trait-like ability enhancements (the only way any job can ever get an enhanced version of a non-job ability, sadly), enough to make them usable. I'd merely caution you from 1) removing the dps oath and 2) removing some manner of decent heal access to the other oaths (e.g. Clemency). As per the math I showed you, Sword Oath is a sizable dps component, and PLD/GLD would need a major revision to its potency to hold its own if Sword Oath was removed. In my signature (PLD fix) I've included the 8 adjustments I personally find most important for PLD, but it takes after the 'Knight' motif more than the 'Paladin' one, leaving heals usable but not really focus-able/specializable (no stance for Cure, instead just mediocre all the time, but at least not crap). Its aimed more at reducing frustrations and increasing general enjoyability than any additional tactical engagement, but I do think it at least retains identity. I haven't fixed Raise because I thought that'd be a bit much. The math is basically done.

Oh, but if GLD's potencies were increased to make up for no Sword Oath, what would you then want to do with that Oath to make it "give and take" still? If no-Oath does competitive dps, we can't really have an extra-dps-ish oath atop that. On the other hand, we already have a damage-sacrificing Oath, such that a +healing for -dmg would overlap a fair bit.

[winsock]

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I've been answering your questions, but if we're going to have an actual discussion, you need to answer mine as well.

You're on the side of PLD having brez and are trying to argue that it's balanced because the SMN can brez and I'd like to attempt to understand where you are coming from.

If someone made a post along the lines of "every class should have a battle rez" would that be something you'd support? Why/why not?

[winsock]

I believe every class/job that can use raise souldn't be blocked by an inconsistent trait.

That's not really a justification and doesn't answer the question. When you get down to brass tacks, aren't you really saying:
"SE allows PLD to rez; therefore, SE should give PLD brez"

So if SE said they where considering giving everyone brez, would you be on board? Why?

The purpose of this question is just to see if there is any scenario where you believe brez shouldn't be allowed because if you believe brez is always balanced no matter what, there's no way we'll ever reach a consensus.

[Reynhart]

That's not really a justification and doesn't answer the question. When you get down to brass tacks, aren't you really saying:
"SE allows PLD to rez; therefore, SE should give PLD brez"

The justification is exactly that. PLD is able to cross class CNJ skills, so they should be able to use them.

BUT, if someone decided to go into a level 50- content as a class (not a job), to be able to cross-class Raise (and maybe Swiftcast) and use it, sure, go for it.
And it could even be an interesting strategy if you didn't have a SMN in your party, to be able to raise one healer.

Of course, now that the level cap is 60, the downside is far too heavy to justify using a class. So, by design, PLD would be the only "physical" job able to heal.

The problem with that trait is that it's totally arbitrary. If Arcanist also had it, at least, it would have been consistent, but still weird...

[Archaell]

...

Do you believe that it is okay to have a skill that can't be used? Because that is exactly Raise atm without the battle trait.

Would paladin be OP with brez? No.

I would like to see how often could one paladin using brez save the party from something like your Ravana example.

So the paladin manages after 8 sec. to raise one healer, drained and in a sorry state, while taking hits. How does the recovery go from there? Even if you had two paladins. I can't see how would the healers manage to recover anything on regular basis.

[Reynhart]

I would like to see how often could one paladin using brez save the party from something like your Ravana example.

Actually, the real question would be how often other tanks would be rejected under the pretense of PLD having raise is a godsend.

Because that's what the balance between jobs is.

[Malicewolf]

I've been answering your questions, but if we're going to have an actual discussion, you need to answer mine as well.

You're on the side of PLD having brez and are trying to argue that it's balanced because the SMN can brez and I'd like to attempt to understand where you are coming from.

If someone made a post along the lines of "every class should have a battle rez" would that be something you'd support? Why/why not?

Sure, I'm more than fine having a discussion and I did answer your questions previously. You keep saying brez will break the game if a PLD gets it because they are not a healer class. That is why I pointed out the SMN. They are a DPS, yet they have a brez. Why? Why did a SMN get the brez AND a completely DIFFERENT resurrection spell (it's the exact same as raise, but was given a different name), but the cross class GIVEN to the PLD can't be used? SE literally made an entirely new move to do the exact same thing for another class that isn't even a healing class. But a class GIVEN a skill as part of their cross class can't even utilize it?

An arcanist does not allow a cross class of their skill resurrection. Meaning, they never intended for BLM's to have the ability as a cross class skill. The only other classes to cross class with Conjurer are other healing classes. The SCH and the AST. There are no other classes cross classing with conjurer, the ONLY class that gives Raise as part of it's cross class skills. The crosses from Conjurer are useless to a PLD in a group setting. Solo play, some are decent (stoneskin and protect), but that's not what this game revolves around (hence, MMORPG).

I'm not saying every class should have a brez. I'm saying, SE gave us the ability for PLD's to cross class with conjurer, but no way to utilize with it. Essentially, making our 4 cross class skills with them effectively useless. Saying that healers should be the only one's able to brez is already NOT a thing. We have SMN's, which are DPS. Once again, I am NOT asking for swiftcast. I'm simply asking that our skills given to us actually be something we could possibly utilize. I'm not saying it'd be easy to utilize them. Heck, it may only be useful once in a blue moon. But then again, half of PLD's skills already are. And that's part of our complaints as well. But I will also say this. Those moves that are only found to be useful in specific situations, when we PLD's DO pull them off perfectly and save a wipe, they are no doubt the most memorable of moments for us. Putting up that Cover with Hallowed Ground on a healer right before a move that wipes the rest of the party and save the day is one of the best feelings for a PLD. It happens once in a while. Not all the time. Raise would be similar in this sense to us.

So end point, you say, "why not give every class brez?"
I'm saying, not every class was given the cross class ability and not able to use it. PLD's did. We got the short end of the stick. We're considered a class that's supposed to be both physical and magic, but only given physical usefulness. And TWO of our NEW moves are basically cover ups for the fact that our cross class skills were useless to us in a group setting. Divine Veil is basically stoneskin II and Clemency is basically Cure II. Tell me. How many other classes got new skills that simply covered up the mistakes of their cross class skills (and not even that well). Clemency is ok. It can get a PLD out of a pinch but isn't sustainable in battle at a constant rate.

[Archaell]

Actually, the real question would be how often other tanks would be rejected under the pretense of PLD having raise is a godsend.

Because that's what the balance between jobs is.

I can't see many players saying: "Guys, let's take two paladins who will save h. ground so that we can fail this mechanic due to dps check (because we brought two paladins) and then after the massacre they will raise healers, healers will use LB3 (after we pray to RNG jesus to have it ready in time) and we will finish the fight." Solid strategy ftw

[Malicewolf]

I can't see many players saying: "Guys, let's take two paladins who will save h. ground so that we can fail this mechanic due to dps check (because we brought two paladins) and then after the massacre they will raise healers, healers will use LB3 (after we pray to RNG jesus to have it ready in time) and we will finish the fight." Solid strategy ftw

Woah woah woah. I think you took the wrong idea from his statement buddy. He's not saying PLD will replace all tanks and people will want to bring in 2 PLDs. He's saying that the dynamic will change and PLD's having raise could make people suddenly go, "oh sweet, a PLD! He can help raise people" instead of "oh god, a PLD. He can do defense CD's that aren't needed" The beauty of 2 tanks is that you can also switch OT and MT if needed. Even if the PLD was the main, the OT could easily switch if the healer's can't stop the healing and there's no SMN.

[Reynhart]

Woah woah woah. I think you took the wrong idea from his statement buddy.

No, actually, he answered perfectly.
I intended such an answer to prove than no one will choose to reject WAR and DRK just because PLD can raise in battle. That's exactly why having a battle raise will have absolutely no effect on the current balance between tanks...while still offering something where PLD to shine sometimes, like Malicewolf described.

People won't chose PLD over other tanks for that Raise, but they'll remember fondly that one time when it saved the day

Like that one time in Turn 12 where the off-tank died and I managed to pop Hallowed Ground just before the primary-secondary head combo. Wonderful memory.