Suggestion - Paladin Identity and new stance?

[Cheraa]

Why not taking my suggestion of switching STR and MND when in "heal oath" (And tie Clemency with Mind) ? This would natturally nerf your own DPS in a very simple way, while tremendously increasing your healing output. And since PLD would only have access to single target Cure, this would never make it a real main healer.

Okay lets go with this to our fictional test server:

- Paladin in Shield Oath fighting and an AOE occurs
- Healer under pressure, you see that your off heal is in need but just used an attack
- 2.5 seconds GCD
- Heal Oath
- 2.5 seconds GCD
- 2 second Cure...ups your target died in the last 6 seconds.
- Change back to Shield Oath

Cure should just scale the same way as Clemency does. Of our STR and Weaponpower.
With that, SE could have done something like: If you cure, you have a chance of 30% that your next Clemency is an Instant Cast.

[Shurrikhan]

It was 10%, and I edited the OP to remove the stacking of old and new Sword Oath after reading a lengthy, and rather numerate reply.

Sorry, hadn't noticed the change yet. However, that is still more than a 10% DPS bonus. You've also included a 10% Skill Speed (I'm assuming you meant Attack Speed?) bonus atop the 10% bonus to raw Damage. If we were spamming a single ability, that would be a 21% increase to DPS. Given that we're actually windowed by GB and that speed won't affect AAs or oGCDs, it would actually be more like a mere 12% until you have a GCD of 2.2, allowing an extra RA combo within GB (extra RA with a 1-tick delayed GB would probably be more useful, however, and would require only a 2.25 GCD...though we are unlikely to be able to reach either in this entire expansion).

My question here is, why does it always have to be DPS? We already have a DPS tank, I don't think PLD needs to imitate that role, so lets look for another niche we can fill.

Because a tank is there to contribute more Raid DPS than a purer Damage-dealer could in his place. The same is true of healers. However, note: if the tank did 0 DPS himself, but kept others alive and allowed positionals or uninterrupted combat to compensate for the loss of another Damage-dealer who could have filled that slot, he would still be contributing Raid DPS. If people would have died when lacking a second healer, then that second healer will ultimately probably be worth more DPS than that extra Damage-dealer. However, when any other tank can contribute nearly the same Raid DPS not related to the tank's personal DPS, while also pushing out 250 more personally, you're generally going to take him. Until the game gives us more numerous and nuanced ways to aid Raid DPS, a lot of it's going to come from personal, and especially given the versatility of our healers its difficult for a off-heal niche to form against that (at least as long as it's costing it DPS to off-heal).

[Reynhart]

- Paladin in Shield Oath fighting and an AOE occurs
- Healer under pressure, you see that your off heal is in need but just used an attack
- 2.5 seconds GCD
- Heal Oath
- 2.5 seconds GCD
- 2 second Cure...ups your target died in the last 6 seconds.
- Change back to Shield Oath

Ok, some questions, then :

• Is the PLD MT or OT ?
• If the PLD is MT, why isn't there a 2nd healer to take care of that ?
• If the PLD is OT, why is he in Shield Oath in the first place ?
• Why isn't the PLD using Cover on the target since he's so close to die ?

The problem with scaling with STR is that you would be able to Cure AND DPS...and tank...at the same time.

Cure is a CNJ skill, so any proc would either only available to CNJ or have an impact on a CNJ skill. Or it would be a retroactive proc on Clemency, which is very convoluted...

However, when any other tank can contribute nearly the same Raid DPS not related to the tank's personal DPS, while also pushing out 250 more personally, you're generally going to take him.

No tank can "contribute nearly the same DPS while pushing out more personally" if having a PLD allows you to bring an additionnal DPS while keepin the raid safe as a back healer.

[Cheraa]

It doesn't matter if the PLD is Main- or Offtank, because you will have to switch the Stance (be it shield or sword) and it is most likely that you will have a GCD running as you would lose DPS or Enmity if you are not chaining your skills.

If you now bring a second healer into discussion, looking into a Healer stance, even more makes no sence. As you will waste GCD with Stance Dance and any second Healer will be a better DPS/Heal than you could ever be.

The problem with scaling with STR is that you would be able to Cure AND DPS...and tank...at the same time.

No, I would not.
If I cure, I don't DPS.
If I cure, I don't tank, because any healer would gain more aggro with their heals, healing still more than twice, than I could do.

A potent cure that heals ~800HP would be a nice tool agains Magic DMG, that is our biggest weakness and we are still limited to our 5-6k Mana Pool.

Cure is a CNJ skill, so any proc would either only available to CNJ or have an impact on a CNJ skill. Or it would be a retroactive proc on Clemency, which is very convoluted...

The Procc is part of Clemency and not Cure. Cure just triggers the Procc. That has nothing to do with CNJ or WHM.

AND Cure IS a PLD Skill as well, because SquareEnix decided that I can use it. If they didn't wanted it, they would have let it out.

[Reynhart]

It doesn't matter if the PLD is Main- or Offtank, because you will have to switch the Stance

No, if your role, as an OT, is to take care of the main tank, you'll stay in heal oath for most of the fight, so you won't lose a GCD switching. It's like staying in Sword Oath when you shouldn't be. The problem is not with the job, but the player.

If there is a second healer doesn't matter if we are looking into a Healer stance, that does make no sence as I pointed out, if you will bring in now a second healer, than the healer stance for PLD is even more ridiculous.

Yes, if there is a second healer, you don't want a PLD in heal stance. And if you have only one healer, then the PLD will stay in heal stance because he'll have a lot of work to do.

No, I would not.
If I cure, I don't DPS.

Wow, do you even realize than healers manage to do both just because they can go back and forth with Cleric Stance ? Or even easier with the SCH fairy...
And, just by staying in Shield Oath while curing, you're being far more sturdy than most job, while still being able to Provoke right of the bat and follow up with a single enmity combo to give you a head start.

The Proc is part of Clemency and not Cure. Cure just triggers the Proc. That has nothing to do with CNJ or WHM.
AND Cure IS a PLD Skill as well, because SquareEnix decided that I can use it. If they didn't wanted it, they would have let it out.

For it to be part of Clemency, it means it's a retroactive proc. No other skill has that (Something like "if you use it before this skill you'll gain that"), except stances.
No, Cure is a CNJ skill. It's just that PLD can cross class CNJ skill.

[Shurrikhan]

The Procc is part of Clemency and not Cure. Cure just triggers the Procc. That has nothing to do with CNJ or WHM.

AND Cure IS a PLD Skill as well, because SquareEnix decided that I can use it. If they didn't want it, they would have let it out.

Sorry to be technical, but:

No abilities in this game checks prior cast/use history. It would have to be a PLD trait enhancing Cure itself for anything to be procced by Cure. I see no issue with this, but SE's rigid job/class design structure has shown that they are in no way willing to give jobs traits, nor classes traits for abilities that aren't native to it. (Which is also why my suggested PLD Mind bonus will never happen.)

[Shurrikhan]

1. No, if your role, as an OT, is to take care of the main tank, you'll stay in heal oath for most of the fight, so you won't lose a GCD switching. It's like staying in Sword Oath when you shouldn't be. The problem is not with the job, but the player.

Yes, if there is a second healer, you don't want a PLD in heal stance. And if you have only one healer, then the PLD will stay in heal stance because he'll have a lot of work to do.

2. Wow, do you even realize than healers manage to do both just because they can go back and forth with Cleric Stance ? Or even easier with the SCH fairy...
And, just by staying in Shield Oath while curing, you're being far more sturdy than most job, while still being able to Provoke right of the bat and follow up with a single enmity combo to give you a head start.

Could you please tell me what level of healing you expect PLD to be capable of. There seem to be a lot of contradictions here. You advocate that you should be prioritizing heals as OT even while including below why a healer is far better suited for that job than PLD is... Further, you just questioned a healing OT PLD hanging out in Shield Oath in the Shield Oath > Heal Oath > Cure > back to Shield Oath example Cheraa gave a few posts ago but now seem to be advocating the option here? Do you want the Heal Oath to be just slightly better at curing than the other two, making them each in their own way viable options?

Bottom line from what I'm seeing, sorry to repeat: Whatever his output, he's only got single-target heals, a very small mana pool, and breaks combos upon starting any cast but Flash. As it stands PLD Sword Oath dps is higher over time than any healer's dps. It is lower than high-efficiency healer DPS abilities, but each healer only has 2-3 decent DoTs. I can see a PLD with decent healing (80+% to 110% of a real healer's Cure/Physic/Benefic - though that would by then call for Clemency modifications) healing maybe once or twice as healer DoTs are exhausting and a maybe bit more to time up with GB or GB + a combo while the healer filler casts, but beyond that, I can't imagine him being much use. While the healer's DoTs are ticking for some 100+ potency per 3 seconds, his Goring Blade is only doing 40 and his auto-attacks are debuffed and delayed. The healer has pet or regens ticking for another 150-230 (relative, pet untraited) potency per 3 seconds. No matter how I look at it, the PLD is sacrificing far more dps than the healer to put out miniscule amounts. That has situation use, sure, but it's almost never going to replace a healer in a way that raid dps itself would not have (the usual limiter of a solo-heal run).

Also, as long as the PLD isn't oGCD healing (like healers' handful of abilities), he CANNOT dps and heal at the same time. That in itself will limit his versatility at least as much as any need to stance-dance to heal.

[Reynhart]

Could you please tell me what level of healing you expect PLD to be capable of.

Actually, no I can't.
Because any actual numbers will be dismissed because "it's too much" or criticized because "it's not enough". And that those numbers would need real tests in real content, which can't be provided in the current state of the game.

But the philosophy would be that the PLD will only take care of the main tank, by using Cure, Clemency as an emergency, and cooldowns to other skills to "split" the damage (Covering the tank, Stoneskin or Divine Veil to reduce incoming damage or Provoking just before a big hit, since the OT doesn't suffer constant damage), allowing it to delay some required healing while the real healer's HoT ticks. Apart from that, I really feel Sheltron should work as long as the hit is in front of us, allowing you to "intercept" a hit with your shield.

Of course this setup wouldn't work in content where two MT are needed, like A1.

[Archaell]

Do we really want to turn paladin in second class healer? We certainly can't let him be good enough to outshine the real healers.

I agree that sword oath is lacking, so it should be reworked, but for the simplicity sake instead of adding more oaths, we should follow in steps of our conjurer subclass and have "cleric stance" - basically one button to switch between shield oath and sword oath with nothing in the middle.

Paladin could use a little bit more utility with shorter CDs. This could be achieved by oaths giving other skills bonus effects. Rage of Halone in shield oath should do something a little bit different than rage of halon in sword oath etc.

As the paladin is supposed to be "mitigation" tank, the oaths could also reflect that - for the whole group. Stick 10% HP increase for group members around paladin on shield oath, heck it could as well turn 5% of healing reveived into splash healing effect that would also heal melee dps jobs. Put something like group wide 10% crit increase on sword oath and disable shield - completely. I think that in sword oath the shield should stay on our back. That way we could actually get more offensive as the bonus from the shield would be removed for the duration. Gladiator starts without a shield, so why not incorporate it into our playstyle.

[Shurrikhan]

Actually, no I can't.
Because any actual numbers will be dismissed because "it's too much" or criticized because "it's not enough". And that those numbers would need real tests in real content, which can't be provided in the current state of the game.

But the philosophy would be that the PLD will only take care of the main tank, by using Cure, Clemency as an emergency, and cooldowns to other skills to "split" the damage (Covering the tank, Stoneskin or Divine Veil to reduce incoming damage or Provoking just before a big hit, since the OT doesn't suffer constant damage), allowing it to delay some required healing while the real healer's HoT ticks. Apart from that, I really feel Sheltron should work as long as the hit is in front of us, allowing you to "intercept" a hit with your shield.

I get what you mean about the numbers; I was just looking for the boundaries. What can it do, what can't it do? How does it fair vs. alternatives? Etc.

I've been wanting the ability to intercept most attacks since 1.x (essentially every AoE being a progressive split (the mitigation from the first person hit subtracts from the attack done to the person behind him, and so forth) and, though certain attacks may resist how this would apply to normal mitigation, certain abilities would still be treated in that way (e.g. Shelltron, Bulwark, Raw Intuition, Shadow Wall)... That said, I'd given up on it as something that SE would actually do.
As such almost every PLD suggestion thread I'd written on, prior to this consolidation here, included a suggestion to change Shelltron into an older-named Aegis Boon, which could then be cast on an ally to apply your block over them. It'd be a little too OP, though, if you didn't actually have to take any of that damage, which is why I didn't include it here despite loving its support capabilities.
Edit: Sadly, even a sort of single-use Cover version of Aegis Boon (where you project yourself, sort of, as the blocking shield, absorbing that portion of damage for the target), would still be OP in the context of you most likely having full health and thinking nothing of the damage while the target's life is saved (kind of like how we forget that Convert has an HP cost).