Suggestion - Paladin Identity and new stance?

[Reynhart]

You're missing 1 thing.

No, you're missing one thing. The fact, by being a competent solo target healer, PLD could offer more option for a solo-heal setup, by offering additionnal mitigation AND additionnal healing.
And a solo heal means that you could add one more DPS to compensate for the lack of DPS from the PLD.

That would give us more choices for party setup. Oh, the horror

Well, guess what?! NOT IN FFXIV...you know, if the class quests didn't tell you that

In FFXIV, PLD is required to be trained in healing, if the job requirements didn't tell you that...

[Bravely_Default]

Also additional healing capabilities could step on toes, just give the paladin AOE damage mitigation for the whole party. Like somebody else said, rampart blocks some of the damage for nearby party members as well. make cover protect from physical and magic. One thing I also think would be interesting is if in addition to the 20%/40% damage mitigated by rampart and sentinel, it mitigated 10%/20% for party members within 10Y. The tank is not a DPS or a healer, so if the paladin especially is supposed to be the "tankiest tank" why not some damage soak to go around?

[Reynhart]

Also additional healing capabilities could step on toes

Do healers really fear that people won't want them in party anymore ? Don't they understand all they offer in a party ?

The tank is not a DPS or a healer

That argument is moot since the creation of Fell Cleave.

[Bravely_Default]

Think about it if healers are trying to cast cure on somebody and the pally gets to them first, that is additional time and mp wasted. A pally using up time to heal also means that something has already gone wrong and they would just be adding more situational aspects to the kit, like if we had a battle raise. When I say the tank is not a DPS or a healer I am talking about the overall role, I realize that the warrior outputs a lot of damage while main tanking, but it still is not what other DPS classes are going to put out. all 3 tank jobs off tanking can also put out similar numbers as well, but it will not come close to what a DPS can do.

[Reynhart]

Think about it if healers are trying to cast cure on somebody and the pally gets to them first, that is additional time and mp wasted.

Think about what if a team decide to...communicate. Like when two healers decide who will focus the tank and the raid, or which healer on which tank.
And if the setup is built around PLD + solo healer, a PLD won't heal because something went wrong but because it will be its duty as OT. And by being competent enough so that the other healer only has to focus on the raid (With a Regen of Esuna on the MT once a while), nothing will be wasted.

You just have to expand your conception of what a party needs to be.

Remember also that the only time where you don't have any control of the party setup (and probably no communication), is when you use the Duty Finder. But Duty Finder content is always doable with any job, because it's specifically designed that way.

And you have to consider that, by limiting tanks to two factors only (One much they can survive and how many DPS they offer), you can't have more than two competitive tank on high end tier.

[Ralvenom]

Do healers really fear that people won't want them in party anymore ? Don't they understand all they offer in a party ?

That argument is moot since the creation of Fell Cleave.

No, it's not. Having a dps stance is HARDLY the same as having an actual, dedicated dps class. Any dps worth their salt can beat a WAR's dps, 75% of the time. Also, as I said already:

A WAR's dps helps the party and plays into the idea of WAR's class design.

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No, you're missing one thing. The fact, by being a competent solo target healer, PLD could offer more option for a solo-heal setup, by offering additionnal mitigation AND additionnal healing.
And a solo heal means that you could add one more DPS to compensate for the lack of DPS from the PLD.

So...you want PLD to BOTH tank AND heal? Wow, talk about 1) balance issues & 2) sadomasochism. Expanding on 2), I'm sure that all the PLD raiders are going to love being expected to be half-tank, half-healer...since a lot of them are already annoyed at being "half-tank, half-dps"* as I keep (wrongfully) hearing.

*Imho, seeing the current paradigm of tanking as "half-tank, half-dps" is a misunderstanding, since we still have dedicated dps who can outdps a tank every single time. All a tank "dps stance" does is give tanks something to do when they're not actively tanking OR a way to min/max their survivability vs damage dealing.

That would give us more choices for party setup. Oh, the horror

No it wouldn't. PLD would NEVER be taken as a "healer", unless they changed the whole way the job system works and allowed you to choose "specs", like WoW or Rift or many other MMOs do. Everything in FFXIV is based on the idea of jobs. PLD are designed as the "physicalmitigation tank" job. Adding a healing stance to them wouldn't do anything for party setup.

[Bravely_Default]

I honestly love the idea of it, but it would be doing exactly as you said, making healers feel like parties don't want them because a tank can do their job just as well. We already see Alexander Savage groups in party finder that only want a warrior dark knight set up, we don't need to see the same thing happening with healers. I know you said this would be a static built team, but if paladins were given the capability of doing what you just said everybody would start doing it. Heaven forbid the paladin's kit was strong enough that you could just run 3 paladins and 5 DPS *shudder*. I honestly think they can bring a paladin up to bar by bringing overall damage mitigation to the group as a whole, or by making some changes to the stances.

[Reynhart]

No, it's not. Having a dps stance is HARDLY the same as having an actual, dedicated dps class. Any dps worth their salt can beat a WAR's dps, 75% of the time.

Yes, and any healer would still beat a PLD's healing capabilities 75% of the time, even if the PLD can take care on one person.
In case you didn't read my previous post, healer can do FAR more than single target cure.

A WAR's dps helps the party and plays into the idea of WAR's class design.

Yes, and PLD's job design requires CNJ training. You know ? The only healer's class.
After that, if you can't see how a healing PLD could greatly help the party by offering a "Five DPS" setup...

I honestly love the idea of it, but it would be doing exactly as you said, making healers feel like parties don't want them because a tank can do their job just as well.

No, it wouldn't. There is still far enough parties in party finder for every healer who want to participate at a set time. And the big difference is that no healer job would be specifically excluded.
And, seriously...I'm tired of explaining how a single-target-healing PLD could not do the job "just as well".

And, also, this setup would be more efficient when you have only one real Main Tank, like A4. The usual "two tanks / two healers" would still be favored for some content.
And it wouldn't concern Duty Finder Party...and statics will be built around what people want to play...

[Ralvenom]

After that, if you can't see how a healing PLD could greatly help the party by offering a "Five DPS" setup...

And this would make things better, because...? Oh, wait, you don't care if healers get left out, because the PLD can pretty much self-heal? Oh, ok...

Just stop.

[Reynhart]

Just stop.

Yeah, just stop pretending that no healer will be wanted...because you obviously have no idea of the massive demand, or the setup in which they'll still be required.

It's becoming more and more dumb, than, by adding choices, people will cry in pain because they don't have only one option anymore...I didn't realize MMO players became that lazy...

So...you want PLD to BOTH tank AND heal? Wow, talk about 1) balance issues & 2) sadomasochism.

Ok, now it's being ridiculous...do you even know how to play PLD ? Well, I know you don't since you don't have it unlocked. So, PLD can use Stoneskin, Cover or Divine Veil to offer additionnal mitigation even when not MT.
(Since, you know, I specifically said that an OT tank could serve as a healer for the MT.)
And I'm fed up of people bringing up the "balance" topic while still being totally fine about WAR and DRK doing everyhting as good or better than the PLD.

I'm sure that all the PLD raiders are going to love being expected to be half-tank, half-healer...since a lot of them are already annoyed at being "half-tank, half-dps"* as I keep (wrongfully) hearing.

No, no, no, damnit. Can't people talk before going into action ! Is it that difficult to communicate about what you want to do in a party ? If you end in a two healer setup, no one will expect you to heal.
If you end in a one healer setup, it will be your choice, because the Duty Finder can't put you in one.