Lets nerf WAR :D

[Donjo]

Took Paladin into Void Ark, could tell literally no difference at all minus an extremely minimal DPS gain. Enmity generation for Shield Swipe is still lackluster in content where it's supposedly "such a great change."

I am better off ignoring the proc in favor of more quickly starting my aggro combo all over again since the combo potency and enmity from Fast Blade to Rage of Halone greatly outweighs that of an ability that's on a 15 second cooldown. This will allow me to drop Shield Oath more soon. The change was unneeded, has made us weaker in content unjustifiably, and is very much ONLY a sidestep to the left and not a step forward.

...

You would ignore an ability that is off the global cooldown in order to use skills on the global cooldown more quickly?

I feel like you're missing something here.

[Shining_Tiger_Excalibur]

You would ignore an ability that is off the global cooldown in order to use skills on the global cooldown more quickly?

I feel like you're missing something here.

Tell me I'm the one missing something when I'm actually at level 60.....the only reason you'll ever even want to use Shield Swipe is for increased DPS and you can only maximize what piss poor gain it gives you in Sword Oath. It's enmity generation is dog shit and even more so now that it has reduced potency. It does not matter for me to use it in Shield Oath as it does not provide me with enough aggro generation. Don't take my word for it....actually, I don't even know why I'm telling you this as you obviously won't. You're one of those people squawking that Paladin is "fine" and this is just a bonus. Let the numbers the other people in this forum will post show whether or not I'm a moron, let the numbers FF Logs will record show whether or not I'm out of touch with how to employ a skill changed solely for the benefit of increased DPS.

[Reynhart]

Tell me I'm the one missing something when I'm actually at level 60.....

You don't really have to patronize her when saying something stupid as "Ignoring the proc for an oGCD skill" when you CLEARLY have the time to use it between GCD skills without losing anything...In fact, that's exactly the point of the new Shield Swipe.

PLD is not "fine" but you can't argue that the new Shield Swipe is definitely a DPS increase over the old Shield Swipe, albeit a very small one.

[Einheri]

Off global cool down isn't worth pushing the button? What exactly is it you are giving up? Is there an animation lock that makes it not worth pushing?

The point about it only being worth it in sword oath is confusing to me as well. Sword oath boosts auto attack potency. While shield oath reduces all damage saying pushing a free 150 potency ogcd button because it's 20% less effective would apply to all skills.

Am I missing something? Not being a 60 pld and all?

[Shining_Tiger_Excalibur]

You don't really have to patronize her when saying something stupid as "Ignoring the proc for an oGCD skill" when you CLEARLY have the time to use it between GCD skills without losing anything...In fact, that's exactly the point of the new Shield Swipe.

PLD is not "fine" but you can't argue that the new Shield Swipe is definitely a DPS increase over the old Shield Swipe, albeit a very small one.

I'm not saying that it it's a DPS loss anymore. I'm saying that in order to actually properly use it, contrary to popular belief, you'll have to use it in Sword Oath. It's potency has been reduced and when paired with my damage down Shield Oath status it further becomes weaker (at that point it's not even 150 potency anymore.) I really, really do understand what you guys are saying. I'm the type of person that tries as much as I can to bury aggro before I do anything else and because of how weak I perceive Shield Swipe to be now, I'm holding off on using it with the intention that Sword Oath will make up for it. I'll tell you the change that could be made where I couldn't really argue against what you guys are saying....if my shield skills, while in Shield Oath ignored damage penalty that, would remove any doubt in my mind about this. It's called "Shield Oath" for a reason, ideally I should take a stance where I predominately use my shield to my advantage no just in defense but offense as well, I strike the target where there's an opening with not just my sword but shield as well. Right now this isn't what Shield Oath does.

And now that you've actually got me thinking on the matter I just remembered, Shield Swipe doesn't cost any fucking TP anymore. I'm ecstatic about that.

[Shining_Tiger_Excalibur]

You would ignore an ability that is off the global cooldown in order to use skills on the global cooldown more quickly?

I feel like you're missing something here.

In light of what Reynhart has said, I feel as though I must apologize for being abrasive. I'm trying my best to explain my reasoning right now while also suggesting ways to remove people's doubt about abilities and tank stances. I think I'm on the right track with suggesting the shield skills (and only shield skills) shouldn't be affected by the damage reduction Shield Oath forces. I've been browbeat into a corner by worse people than you and now that someone has brought up the similarity of my aggressor(s) and I acting the same right now, again, I have to apologize.

[Reynhart]

I'm saying that in order to actually properly use it, contrary to popular belief, you'll have to use it in Sword Oath.

No, you have to use it...anytime, unless you have a better oGCD skill available between these two GCD. But with the proc duration, you can use one oGCD, one GCD, then Shield Swipe.

Shield Swipe doesn't prevent you gaining enmity, since it doesn't really "delay" any skill.

[Shining_Tiger_Excalibur]

No, you have to use it...anytime, unless you have a better oGCD skill available between these two GCD. But with the proc duration, you can use one oGCD, one GCD, then Shield Swipe.

Shield Swipe doesn't prevent you gaining enmity, since it doesn't really "delay" any skill.

I'll make a bargain with you....I'll use it each and every single time because I see the value you talk about. You and others will be charged with spreading the word that people are reluctant to use an incomplete toolkit. This is demonstrably an issue with Paladin right now. You've heard it all before----A 1.0 remnant (Spirits Within) having its potency reduced exponentially based on my current health upon use (me.....a tank.....that's....supposed to be hit,) Clemency has no place anywhere other than solo content, we lack AoE DPS, our MT DPS is pitiful, etc. I'll take your advice and humbly admit that I'm wrong. I just ask of you to remember why I brought the issues up and tell others. Tell Square.

Notable suggestions:
Shield Skills should ignore Shield Oath penalty.
Shield Swipe remains at its current potency, activation requirement, enmity, cooldown timer, stays oGCD with no TP cost but is a cone AoE to make up for our extremely pitiful AoE damage potential slightly.
Slight enmity enhancements for skills they determine to be deficient so that we can help meet DPS checks slightly more easily.
Something needs to be done with Clemency (either a limited time self HoT that equals out to the mp cost over that limited time ***for the love of the gods, no aura plz***, or it's cast time should be cut in half while maintaining it's extremely high MP cost.)

These aren't a lot of changes, and they certainly won't catapult us into doing 1300 DPs whether it be as OT or MT. They will help resolve the issue of a complete lack of synergy among skills and the design of Paladin while keeping it distinguishable among tanks.

[Iagainsti]

I'll make a bargain with you....I'll use it each and every single time because I see the value you talk about. You and others will be charged with spreading the word that people are reluctant to use an incomplete toolkit. This is demonstrably...

This is...Subjective, not undeniable. Also, I love seeing a group of Paladins arguing toolkit in a Dead Thread about nerfing Warrior. #toorich #Seenitallnow

[Reynhart]

I'll make a bargain with you....I'll use it each and every single time because I see the value you talk about. You and others will be charged with spreading the word that people are reluctant to use an incomplete toolkit.

Don't worry, I'm participating in several threads debating all the issues for PLD

For me though, PLD and DRK need to be pushed in totally new directions for each tank to have a legit spot in any content.