Astro or White Mage ?

[echoica]

Actually, AST in end game generally takes the place of the WHM as the main healer...and it does it quite well.

I was speaking of playing WHM with another healer in end game content not talking about which set up is best. Relax.

[Zaj_Quilos]

I mained WHM before Heavensward. Now I main AST as WHM is boring as ****

[416to305]

I mained WHM before Heavensward. Now I main AST as WHM is boring as ****

I haven't read all the other posts but this is basically me as well. Always played WHM and really loved it. Then I was doing A1 normal one day with an AST and they did Collective Unconscious at one point and it was my first time seeing it. I was like WOAH that's SO cool! So got back into playing AST as I find it gives me more to do, as not to boast but I'm a pretty good healer and I find with WHM it gets a little boring sometimes. Yes you can DPS but still have to be careful as it's easy to run right out of MP if you're DPSing too much so there's only so much you can do. I find they are very similar though as their base heals are the same for the most part with only minor differences like Medica 2 does 20 yalms where Asp. Helios is 15 but I haven't had it be an issue really (I do prefer the pink Medica 2 buff icon though as it's more obvious than the green Asp. Helios).

Here's my thoughts on them as a high casual player (I play every day but not into savage stuff so I'm talking everything else).

WHM is super potent for healing and has more healing spells than you need really. There's so many AoE heals like Medica, Medica II, Cure III, Assisze, and technically even Asylum. All are super powerful and can quickly get people to 100% HP not even mentioning Cure, Cure II, Regen, etc. Then you get Tetra for an instant quick heal, Benediction which is insane helpful when you have those oh shit moments to bring someone to 100% HP quick. When you flip to DPS mode, you have really powerful DPS abilities as well. Stone III especially is very potent, then you have great AoE options also like Assize for 300 potency damage instantly, as well as Holy which is amazing and starts at level 45. Then you have all your DoTs, like Aero III which is an AoE DoT, plus Aero II or even just Aero. In addition you can Stoneskin II on all party members very fast as well. I do find it gets boring though, as you're literally just healing or DPSing with nothing really major in between. Having Assize come off cooldown is probably the most exciting thing you get to have happen.

AST on the other hand is similar in those base heals, but gives you something more to do with the cards, by making combos and applying them to others. You definitely do see the results of the cards as well, especially if you do expanded Balance on everyone, Time Dialation on the strongest DPS, and Celestial Opposition to extend it even more. When CO or CU come off cooldown it's actually exciting, as I feel so awesome popping Col.Unc. right before some big AoE damage. It has its downsides though in that you can't move, meaning half the time you're literally standing under the boss to use it and if they start to cast an AoE you pretty much lose it. The regen effect is very potent though and you DEFINITELY see the results in that 10% reduction of damage for anyone in it. You also get to change it up with the sects, as alone I don't like Nocturnal, but when playing with another AST or WHM I find it actually is helpful and fun to play. I think I like AST because it's new, like when I go back to WHM I've played it so much that it just feels almost like I have no abilities, even though I do (or rather abilities I like can't wait to use like Collective Unconscious). My negatives with AST though are 1) Gravity is only at level 52 which sucks. Holy is SO handy at 45 as you can use it while leveling so many times in low level stuff or level 50 trials and what not, so I hate not having any AoE abilities for damage until higher up. Also Holy doesn't require a target, so blast away with it where Gravity sometimes will get interrupted if the targeted enemy dies when you're like 90% done casting it. 2) Malefic II just doesn't feel as potent as Stone III for some reason even though it's 200 vs 210. When doing Stone III I always seem to see mobs take a big hit, but Malefic II just doesn't feel as strong, not sure why. 3) The DoTs aren't as good I don't find, as Combust II is a bit more potent than Aero III, but Aero III does AoE so it kills Combust!

Both play very similar though but I find WHM is easier to learn I think, as the cards can be distracting trying to deal with them while also healing, as even when I started playing it after main WHM I found sometimes it was like so much going on at the same time! Scholar is super different though but AST and WHM are close. Nice thing is they mostly use the same gear (except for me now as ESO is restricted by class) but when I hit 50 and then 60 on my AST I was already iLVL 188 or so just from having all the gear from Alex that I played as WHM, so makes it easy to change it up.

[Ghishlain]

You uses 36 spell with ds.
24 cure II
12 regen

Each Ds is 15 sec

15/2.5=6 cd available (more if Pom)
So 36 spell, you uses 6th times DS.
SO each DS, you use 4 cure II and 2 regen.
So I assume you use Regen, Cure II*4, Regen.
So, you lost 3.33 tick eacth times.*6 DS=20 ticks

So one full Regen Ds is like 1365 but a regen that lost 3.xx tick is +- 780potency and it's less than a cure II. So If I'm correct Regen DS+ 5 Cure II DS is better. I didn't check yet for Astro.

So if you keep regen, 6 full regen ds= 42 tick and 6 regen with only 4tick=24=> 42+24=66 tics.
and 66*195=12870
But I would imagine that the last regen will have less ticks and so, can be replace by Cure if we finish at 6.00 min

For DS + Regne, I was going under the assumption that you do Regen at the beginning of Divine Seal and assume you can reapply it at the 15s mark. This gives you five ticks of Regen which is greater than a Cure II. It's not always the case of course and is more suitable when just using Cure and not Cure II but for the sake of easy theorycrafting, I calculated it as such. In my theory craft there will be a period where you lose one tick of Regen per minute on WHM, mostly because there's no point to reapply it when you're going to Divine Seal + Regen in the next GCD anyway.

I don't know why astr got 151 gcd versus 150 for whm ?

Diurnal Sect gives a 5% attack speed buff, effectively reducing your recast to 2.375. This translates to 151 GCDs.

Upon rechecking this, I realize I'm a bit mistaken on this. For some reason I thought PoM was 20s duration every 2 minutes. It's 15s every 2.5 min. When a WHM uses PoM, in those fifteen seconds they have 7.5 GCDs versus six. If you use PoM at 0, 2.5, and 5 minutes, that gives WHM an additional 4.5 GCDs for the entire fight. So, 144 GCDs normally + 4.5 for the three PoM usages = 148 GCDs. I will adjust the sheet to suit.

So if I wanted to do max heal. I would use Pom and Divine seal in the same time. And Even MedicaII wich is (200+(500 hot))=700 potency So with unlimited Mana, I would use that everytime WITH Swiftcast.

Yeah, with PoM + DS you're gonna get one additional GCD before DS wears off. I'll adjust that for both tables.

And I don't like how you count the cd. You said we got 2 benediction. SO I Start to 0=>5 min. So you can use it 2 times in 5 min. The same for Divine seal, you can use it six times before we reach the 6th min.
But for tetra/asylum/assize/ED/CU, you don't start at 0. So I would say you can use 7 tetra in 6 minutes.
0.00 min=>1st tetra
1.00 min=>2nd tetra
6.00 min=>7th tetra So the seventh tetra end when the time limits ends.

I'm not counting any CD usage at the 6th minute mark (when all the CDs should be coming off at the same time. Benediction and PoM are the two exception because they still be counting down on the CD table by the 6th minute. Still, even if Bendiction is slightly skewed towards WHM, it won't hurt too much.

Any 60s CD you'd get 6 times at 0m, 1m, 2m, 3m, 4m, and 5m
Any 90s CD you get 4 times at 0m, 1.5m, 3m, and 4.5m
Any 120s CD you get 3 times at 0m, 2m, and 4m

Here, what I would change. In this change, I take the fact That POm is performing when DS is active. 2.5 gcd is becoming 2.0 when Pom is active.
I would do 144 gcd + 6 gcd from Pom( 4 cureII with ds)
=>92 CureII and 40 Cure II with DS = ((92*650=59800)+(40*845= 33800))= 93 600 potency
=>12 regen and 6 Regen DS= ((12*150*7=12600)+(6*195*7=8190))= 20790 potency

It's 114 390 against 110 820

And if I take your Ogcd=> 114 390 + 11200= 125 590. +- the same As Astro but I will put more potency for Benediction and less to ED. Hoping that you will understand.

ps1: I could be wrong, But I hope i've made no mistake

Essential Dignity on a tank at 50% seems reasonable and puts you at 700 Potency heal if you do that. I feel that shouldn't change.

Benediction unfortunately isn't an easy thing to measure. With it's current potency I've given it, with an i195 WHM w/ Seraph Staff, it would amount to approximately 10K HP restored. It feels "right" at that level, though Benediction's power is obviously dependent on the situation and the gear of your tanks, as well as your comfort level at getting them lower.


When I make the adjustments to the sheet, AST is ahead of WHM by about 4% on maximum healing. Conversely, on more normalized healing, WHM is ahead of AST by about 2%. Of course, you'll never be constantly healing so there's already a large flaw in the model, but simulating absolute maximum potency can help determine a healer's capabilities. It's just a matter of scaling back that maximum to a limit that's very suitable for the content.

[Kaenbyou]

To give my 2 cents, I would usually say, level the 3 healers to lvl 30 (especially for sch) and try doing a few brayflox/qarn nm with them, you should already have a few insight about each class and their playstyle really fast.
Now, it all depends of your real goal with healer.
Do you just want to play casual content and not think much about it? Then play whatever you like the most.
However, if you want to play in savage content, the best would be to see with your static (if you have one) and the other healer what feels the better.
We tried some combo and we ended up finding that whm and sch was one of the better combo, followed by ast and sch.
As I can read in your opening post, if your goal is to be the most helpful, it all depends on what helpful means to you.
If you want to be the last bastion against a wipe and a life savior to your tanks, WHM is your job to go, because in endgame content, you'll have to heal the most and at 75% of the time, you're going to be the only one healing.
If you want to manage some good healing and boost your team dps indirectly, AST is the good choice. The only downside for me in endgame content is the RNG, but if luck is on your side, you're one of the best support in the game.
If you want to help by boosting the damage output of your team directly while playing a more preemptive healer, then go for SCH. Your hps output is technically lower than other healers, but is compensated by the fairy that allows the most free time to dps. However it will require you to know the fight perfectly to find all possible window to do the maximum dps you can.

So tl;dr : for casual content, whatever you like ; for endgame : whatever you and your team feel is the better.

[FaizeD]

I don't know why any analysis of maximum output would purposefully ignore AoE healing, considering that it is a necessary component of a main healer's repertoire, especially in Savage. I guess that this consideration would favour WHM and not fall in line neatly with whatever it is people want to "prove" with questionable math.

[Ghishlain]

I don't know why any analysis of maximum output would purposefully ignore AoE healing, considering that it is a necessary component of a main healer's repertoire, especially in Savage. I guess that this consideration would favour WHM and not fall in line neatly with whatever it is people want to "prove" with questionable math.

Because it doesn't take much to determine that a WHM can out heal any job in the game in the AoE department. Just comparing WHM to a Diurnal AST, you get the following:

• Medica II 700 Potency > Aspected Helios 600 Potency
• Divine Seal is a 30%+ to healing every 60 seconds versus Synastry's 20% every 90 seconds
• AST has nothing in their toolkit that matches Assize's 300 Potency

It's clear WHM has the distinct advantage in the AoE department.

But the game itself doesn't revolve around a massive amount of AoE damage. It has a smaller percentage of raid damage and a higher percentage of your tank though a combination of raid damage + tank buster + auto attacks.

If, as many players claim, that WHM has stronger healing than AST, than the obviously conclusion is that an AST has to work a bit harder to output the same healing as a WHM to keep your MT alive. That's clearly not the case. Consider the following:

• Benefic = Cure
• Essential Dignity > Tetragrammaton - You get three EDs for every two Tetras and as long as the tank has less than 80% health at the time ED is cast, ED will beat Tetra
• On single target, Synastry provides 68% additional healing for 20s every 90s (15% additional healing overall) versus Divine Seals 30% for 15s every 60s (7.5% additional healing overall)
• Aspected Benefic provides more healing in the same period of time as Regen at the cost of significantly worse MP efficiency

If WHM healing was stronger, than I would expect WHM healing output to be something in the realm of 10% to 15% stronger when you account for either normal healing practice or maximum potential. But it's not.

So explain to me why is determining a healer's potential "faulty"? By showing both healer's have similar outputs, by extension you can argue that both healers would need to scale back their healing to meet the current potency requirements for the fight or section of the fight. While the nuances of the fight might favour one healer over another, neither WHM nor AST have a significantly higher potential than the other.

Also, please elaborate why the theorycraft / math is "questionable". Claiming something is questionable does not prove anything. Back up your claim and show me why the math is flat out wrong. And yes, there are already concessions one could argue to make the Model slightly more accurate (IE, Collective Unconsciousness needing to tick one to get the HoT benefit for everyone under it).

[Neela]

so some of you gave us a good summary of the 3 healers on their own. my only heal cls is sch so far (coming along with my main smn) but i really get used and loved to healing in general. ast is the one i know less - so actually i like to run primals and raids with whm as co healer. out of my view they make up a good team for every situation (heavy and guard heals). now i wonder how usefull are other combinations in endgame or upcoming content. are there situations where ast/whm or ast/sch have an higher advantage than sch/whms?...

[Vlady]

I would pick astro for now. They outclass white mages right now with a better toolkit for tank healing and utility.

[Kaenbyou]

so some of you gave us a good summary of the 3 healers on their own. my only heal cls is sch so far (coming along with my main smn) but i really get used and loved to healing in general. ast is the one i know less - so actually i like to run primals and raids with whm as co healer. out of my view they make up a good team for every situation (heavy and guard heals). now i wonder how usefull are other combinations in endgame or upcoming content. are there situations where ast/whm or ast/sch have an higher advantage than sch/whms?...

AST + SCH = maximum dps output if the AST assume the "main heal" role, the buff from the cards and the damage from the scholar can help a lot hitting those pesky enrage timer.
AST + WHM = safer combo, allow the whm to dps (it has an incredible burst), really potent hps and/or shield.