Thoughts On Live Letter Crafting Changes

[Delta041]

Looking forward to different avenues of getting crafting materials. I haven't bothered pushing past level 60 1* crafting simply because I don't want to deal with the gathering side of things. I doubt it will get any easier but it may be enough to finally get me capping red scripts each week.

Melding green and blue gear sounds interesting but I sincerely hope you can't overmeld it. I also wouldn't mind seeing grade 1-4 materias rebalanced around the stats on grade 5 materias since they're sometimes over twice the stats of their grade 4 counterparts.

[Sollux]

Even without taking a break it's hard to guess what they're going to do. While the weekly lock does parallel the Tomestone system, there are some differences, too. The main one is that you can't currently buy a full set of i180 gear with Red Scrips, and I think that difference is a small hint toward their future plans.

This leaves them room to add i180 accessories without cycling in new Scrip gear, which would then be necessary to craft 3-stars in 3.2.

This is possible, but if our only new gear pieces for at least 3 months are Accessories I can see a few issues popping up for our Endgame progression:

1. It's very unlikely the ability to craft 3-Stars would be locked behind needing a certain amount of CP over Progress/Control, especially with the variety of skills and rotations we have access to now. The current 2-Stars can be reliably crafted with as little as 437 CP which doesn't require a single i170 Accessory, or even full white gear CP melds (Assuming HQ CP food is used).

2. If these Accessories were i180 they would, by design, be less powerful than i170 Accessories overmelded, especially in the CP department. If this is the case, by the time 3.2 rolls around and they're released the current 2-Star Accessories will likely be much more accessible (Thanks to Exploratory Missions) making them a more reasonable choice time and stat-wise (Even if only for the CP) and effectively making the Crafting 3.2 Endgame gearing pointless (Assuming only Accessories are released).

3. It would make more sense if they released i200 Scrip Accessories and i190 Crafted Accessories, but unless their Scrip cost is massive then we would likely complete our Endgame within a month. Even if they release class specific Accessories (My Armoury chest would explode from the number of rings alone) with their historically low material cost we would still complete them well before the next major patch.

No one, including (Especially) myself really knows though. It could follow a similar pattern to ARR which also began with class specific sets, however they weren't locked behind any kind of gating and could be completed relatively quickly. To me, the gear progression for Crafting in ARR seemed like an afterthought, with bits and pieces of new gear added here and there and an all-in-one set added to the mix near the end.

It feels like SE is trying to extend the life of the Crafting Endgame in HW and if they only release new Accessories then that leaves very little to do for mid-hardcore Crafters after the first few weeks besides making gil, but that isn't the Endgame, it's a by-product of it.

[Katlyna]

I'm looking forward to the airship missions and whatever materials we can gather/trade in etc for red script or other glamour materials. Our FC is blessed with 3 max airships and soon 4. We've already started prepping a weekly group for clears. From my understanding others without large FCs should be able to participate in the non-hard modes.

I'm super curious when and what the three star crafting requirements are going to be, but I'm not expecting any three star recipes until 3.2. I'm super looking forward to the 3.2 changes. But I'm happy to hear we are getting some changes in 3.1

[Alahra]

It feels like SE is trying to extend the life of the Crafting Endgame in HW and if they only release new Accessories then that leaves very little to do for mid-hardcore Crafters after the first few weeks besides making gil, but that isn't the Endgame, it's a by-product of it.

They are, yes. They're just hitting stumbling blocks. While ARR's progression was sort of piecemeal (and I'll agree it did feel like an afterthought at times), it has so far *worked* better, comparatively. I've been thinking a lot about why, trying to pinpoint it. My current thinking is that right now, we're sort of missing part of the endgame for crafters.

For combat classes, you tend to go through two or three gear stages per raid tier. In HW, you started with Law gear (upgrading that to i180), moved on to Alex, and then, once you were geared enough, you moved on to Savage. In a sense, I think it's the Savage (or "raid") step that we're missing right now. Getting geared enough to move to the next stage is a rewarding feeling, so Savage sort of serves two purposes: one, it provides loot, and two, reaching/completing the current raid is sort of a reward in and of itself, and it tends to keep you coming back every week to get more gear, hit BiS, and so on.

There's a sense in which the combat gear crafters made in ARR was kind of the "raid" level for crafters. You got your base gear done, and then you started making stuff you couldn't make before, learning the best rotations, and eventually, consistently HQ'd that stuff. That, in a way, mirrors the process of learning new raid fights and the like. The reward for crafting wasn't generally more gear, but rather, more gil, and you could keep crafting the gear throughout a patch cycle, sort of how you continue raiding for the whole cycle.

The current HW structure is sort of missing that feeling. All of the *pieces* are there for it--we do have 2-star combat gear and other items to make, we have currency gear to buy, and so on. But the "gearing up" progression stage is too short: you can hit 2-star level with i150 and melds, such that we were already "done" progressing when Red Scrips were introduced. Red Scrip gear in and of itself probably has the length of progression about right, but gearing up with it doesn't really provide a particularly tangible benefit, outside of making your own AF, since the effort required to make the combat gear is simply too high relative to their relative value. Making your own gear has always been a hallmark of the system, especially for omnicrafters, but the difference between now and then is that we used to make our own AF *and* stuff for other people.

I know it's mentioned sometimes that we should love crafting for its own sake, but not even the combat classes work that way. "Crafting for its own sake" is not unlike sitting on a Striking Dummy on your DPS class of choice and running through the motions. There has to be more to it than that for it to truly be engaging: for combat progression, it's the raiding scene, generally.

From the looks of it, though, they seem to have picked up the fact that something's missing. Starting in 3.2, we know we're going to get more powerful crafted gear, and in fact, it seems like they're making it even better than we've ever had before, meaning that we'll have a reason to keep crafting from beginning to end of the entire 3.2/3.3 patch couplet.

In the near term, 3.1 should also be better as well. Materials will be more readily available, meaning the 2-star items should start to become a worthwhile pursuit in general, which will, again, keep us busy. They also mentioned changes to Red Scrips, though they didn't exactly say what those were going to be.

So I think we've got a lot to look forward to.

Edit: Oh, and this hit me later, regarding possible progression paths. There aren't any i180 offhands either, so we're likely to see those added in 3.2, if I had to guess. That takes care of the necessary increase for Craftsmanship and Control for 3-stars in terms of progression.

[Sollux]

Snip

You're absolutely right that Crafting is meant to benefit yourself as well as others, and right now we don't really benefit the Combat classes in any meaningful way. From your detailed analysis (Thank you for the insight by the way) I'm realizing that we have 2 completely different expectations for what exactly Crafting Endgame IS: Making Gil, and Gear Progression.

Disclaimer: I'm assuming that regardless of your personal expectations you also want to Craft to help your friends

I'm in the Gear Progression mindset. I enjoy Crafting immensely, especially the challenge of new Recipes, coming up with new rotations, and seeing myself get better and better at it. I enjoy Crafting for the discovery. You mirrored "Crafting for it's own sake" to hitting a Striking Dummy repetitively and I can't deny that there are similarities between the two but only after everything has been analyzed and the best rotations and minimum stats are known. An inherent flaw in the ability for Crafting to hold a player's interest is in it's formulaic design. In Alexander Savage you may have seen every guide, perfected your rotation, bought the best food and pots you can afford and maybe even overmelded a 2-Star piece or two but there is still no guarantee you will clear it reliably, or even clear it at all. For Crafting, all you need is to "Have X stats use X rotation have X% chance to HQ on average". As long as a player has the stats and follows a rotation they found on the internet they can Craft a 2-Star. HQ is of course almost never guaranteed, but once an optimal rotation has been found the determining factor becomes less reliant on skill and more reliant on RNG.

Being a pioneer in the 2-Star Crafting scene made me feel like a hardcore raider, going into Crafting Savage with no guides and no idea if my gear or rotation was good enough. There was NO information out there whatsoever to go on so I had to pave my own way and I had a BLAST doing it. I really felt a sense of accomplishment with each piece Crafted, every stat increase, every change to my Rotation that made my Crafts more stable and efficient. I didn't Craft 2-Star gear for better stats because I HAD to, I did it because I WANTED to. I don't need a full overmelded 2-Star set any more than a raider needs a full set of i210 gear, granted you can't beat Savage in upgraded Law gear, but the feeling of wanting to be the best that I can be is the same.

A large portion of the playerbase Craft to make Gil, and while Gil isn't my primary motivator I completely agree that there is a lack of an Endgame in this regard. I've expressed my opinions on this in another thread pretty thoroughly already, but to summarize:

1. Combat Endgame gains almost no benefit from Crafting other than repairing their gear and making food and pots.

2. Gatherers have no tangible reason to buy anything past the i150 white set (Not to mention a lack of a craftable Gathering left side).

3. Due to the previous reasons, along with the high cost to Craft 2-Star gear, Crafters have little to no incentive to Craft their own i170 sets when they can comfortably obtain the i180 pieces for a fraction of the cost. I won't say that it's impossible to make gil through 2-Stars, but with current sales and the high cost to Craft them they just aren't worth the investment risk.

I keep making comparisons to Combat primarily because I keep seeing more and more similarities/contrasts between the two:

A majority of Crafters are driven to Craft with the expectation of making Gil (Or because they're bored or want to help their friends). A minority of Crafters are driven to Craft 2-Stars because they want to test and improve themselves (And maybe make some Gil and teach their friends).

In contrast, A majority of Raiders are driven to Raid because they want to test and improve themselves (Or they want to help or have fun with their friends). A minority of Raiders are driven to Raid with the expectation of selling runs for Gil (Or because they're bored or want to help their friends).

I know that things aren't as Jet Black and Pure White when it comes to what motivates a player to do what they do, and I know there are plenty of people who fall between both mindsets and are extremely frustrated with the current Crafting system. Gear Progression is necessary in order to make Gil, and at the same time it's necessary to make Gil to further your Gear Progression. The current system appeals to a small minority of Crafters who appreciate a challenge and prefer a long-term Endgame, but it alienates a large chunk of the playerbase that prefers a tangible benefit to their efforts or want to meet the challenge but can't justify the sacrifice of time/gil.

We were given a light at the end of the tunnel with 3.2 promising stronger Crafted Combat gear, and I know I may have no right to complain, but I also hope they include some form of progression that I can really sink my teeth into. I can't lie and say I didn't enjoy the current Crafting Endgame (At least not after the change to Favors), but I don't think I'm exaggerating when I say 3.1 is our hope for a revival of Crafting interest and an easier way to progress into 2-Stars.

[Alahra]

but I also hope they include some form of progression that I can really sink my teeth into.

I basically fall into the group of those who "want to meet the challenge but can't justify the sacrifice of time/gil." Combat progression is cyclical already, and so when I look to crafting, I'm looking for a different sort of reward structure, in part to keep things from getting too monotonous. With the investment not really tracking to the reward, as it were, I've had trouble motivating myself to craft all through HW thus far.

There are honestly a lot of aspects of the current structure that I *do* like, so I don't want to see the longer aspect of the progression go by the wayside either. I think by and large, they struck about the right balance with the i180 vs. i170 sets for instance. Both sets are attractive for various reasons, and they'll appeal to different sorts of crafters. I think they can iron things out a bit (as we've discussed elsewhere, it's not exactly clear how progression throughout the expansion is going to work just yet, especially with regard to those who have the fully pentamelded stuff). They also got the time balance about right between them (though I think the Gathering requirements for the crafted versions are a bit too high).

I've always rather enjoyed figuring out rotations and the like as well, but given my abhorrence towards Gathering, I haven't actually done anything with 2-stars in HW yet. If there had been a more reasonable way to get the materials without gathering (and omni-crafting, which I've also never particularly enjoyed--sadly, the specialization system didn't deliver the sort of ability to focus on 3 crafts as I had hoped it would), I probably would have been making my own sets as well, at least for my three main crafts. That's another reason I'm excited for 3.1, as the mats should become more readily available for those of us that don't want to go all in.

And yes, one of the things I enjoyed most about crafting in ARR was making gearsets and the like for friends. That hit its peak in 2.4, with the highly desirable i110 gear (as well as the Artisan's set). I look forward to being able to make that kind of stuff for my FC and Linkshells again. I'm already far more excited and finally started spending my Red Scrip tokens again today in anticipation of what looks to be a much more enjoyable state for crafting soon.

[Sollux]

(as we've discussed elsewhere, it's not exactly clear how progression throughout the expansion is going to work just yet, especially with regard to those who have the fully pentamelded stuff)

And this is what excites me the most. We have NO idea what they're planning for Crafting as they've veered off from the precedent that ARR set (At least for the beginning) with the introduction of Red Scrips.

Will they continue their gating with the new Scrip system?
Will new Scrips come out at the same time as new Tomestones? (3.2)
What kind of new Scrip gear will they release? Will it be another upgrade to our left side or our right side, or both? Will it be class specific?
Will new Scrip gear follow the same formula as the current Scrip gear?
Will we have options besides Gathering Scrips to get new Scrip materials?
Will they release smaller upgrades to Crafting gear more often?
Will we have another turn-in system for new gear/books similar to the Supra/Lucis/Master I/II books?
Will we have new versions of Supra/Lucis tools?
Will they add another Demon Craft? (The insanity that were the HQ Masterbook II/Supra turn-ins)
Will we get any Crafting-specific Distractions and Diversions? (Similar to Ixals)
Are they planning something we haven't seen before?

SO MANY QUESTIONS. As a Hardcore Crafter I plan to give 100% to whatever comes our way. If Crafting Endgame becomes easier then I'll be happy that more people are taking interest in it as I'll have more thoughtful discussions like this one, rather than mad that "All my work was for nothing" or "If I could have gotten it this easily I would have waited". I'd like to continue to be challenged by Crafting Endgame, but after completing all HQ 2-Star sets I feel satisfied challenge-wise (At least for a while anyways).

Side note, I'm surprised you only have 3 Crafts at max considering how much you care about Crafting.

[Alahra]

Side note, I'm surprised you only have 3 Crafts at max considering how much you care about Crafting.

I'm too much of a nerd about my character in a role-play sense to be happy having more than the ones that I think "fit" (I actually have similar issues with leveling certain battle classes, and regretted leveling everything to 50 in ARR). That's ultimately why I didn't like the necessity of omni-crafting in ARR and was excited for the Specialization system, but it didn't really accomplish what I was hoping it would.

And yes, we have a lot of unknowns at this point, and speculation and glamours are probably two of my favorite things to do in/around FFXIV. I hope we get some nice surprises. It even looks like we might be getting new crafted battle gear, judging by one of the slides from the Live Letter, in 3.1, which would be something we've never seen before in an odd-numbered major patch.

I'm very excited to get back into and hopefully be closer to the front of things with crafting again. I blew through ALC before Alexander was released (spending several million on mats since ALC isn't exactly a great first craft), assuming I could make a killing on potions--and that's where my disappointment with the current state of things began. It killed my enjoyment of the rest of the expansion in a lot of ways, I have to admit.

But it's looking like they'll be getting things in a much better state in the weeks and months to come, and my excitement's mounting by the day.

And I have to admit...I think I would like to get another Demon Craft. They were ridiculously frustrating but so very satisfying when all was said and done.

[Seyb]

Soo.. Why is there not more hype for patch 3.1 regarding the crafting changes?

I hope for the following:

1. The materials than can be gathered in the exploratory missions are ooids and roundstones.
2. Red Scrip materials that can be exchanged for exploratory points are dryad sap, etc. (at a quantity of 1).
3. The equipment from exploratory missions can be desynthed into two star base materials (adamantite ingot, etc.).
4. Equipment from the new dungeons can be desynthed into two star base materials.

Too much hope?

[Nekotee]

Desynth in 2* star base material is a bit much...
Maybe in 2* base material comp ? The red script/favors one