Four Ways to Die - why the Tank Meta feels "off".

[Nadirah]

Ok, so its my way or the highway. Got it.

The idea is to make tank a more "attractive role". That way more people play it. DPS players are paying subscribers too, they should not be treated as lesser because they don't wanna play a tank. If you play tank cause that is fun for you then great, maybe you should hit a checkbox and wait in line behind the people that play it out of duty. Thats essentially the connection you are making.

I've never understood the whole "I'm a tank so you gotta listen to my attitude." It's ridiculous.

You honestly can't possibly expect to have short DPS queues when you play the statistically highest represented role, can you?

Here's a little hint for you:

Over in wow, tanks do asinine amounts of damage. Still, no one plays them. Why do you think this is? It sure isn't the DPS.

I sincerely hope they don't go back to push-button-afk-eat-sandwich tanking with v3.2; they might change this or it may highlight this even more as it makes tanking invigorating and dynamic.

If you were afk eating a sandwich while in a raid, you're bad. Sorry. I don't care how boring it is, at least pay attention.

And a lot of people find it extremely unattractive. "my way or the highway" was never said, and you just sound hyper-defensive about the ability to play as a glorified dps while tanking. If you like this sorry state of affairs then you're free to, but don't shove words in someone's mouth and then complain that THEY have an attitude.

I never did say my way or the highway, but I did pretty much say "oh you don't like DPS queues? Too bad." If you want to dps, play a dps, and take the benefits and detriments that go with it. Same goes for tanking and healing, two roles that traditionally haven't really been exactly damage dealers.

[AniCelestine]

My wait time as a melee dps in 2.0 was never long aside from when ninja's were first released..

Yeah an old post but really? Not long queue times back in 2.0-2.1? I gained atleast 3 levels crafting and gathering material for crafting per queue wait. I spent the rest of the 2.x patch doing dungeons/roulets as a tank cause of the 30+min queues as dps at the start. Now in 3.0 I get on my monk, select a duty, go on the queue (solo) it's about 20 seconds of waiting, rarely longer than 1min.

I guess Cerbeus didn't have tanks back in 2.0 and they migrated here from other servers during 2.1-2.5

/shrug.

As for people who don't enjoy the tanking meta in this game, don't tank. I see no reason to play as a class you don't like, but guess that's just me being weird.

/shrug

[karateorangutang]

I never did say my way or the highway, but I did pretty much say "oh you don't like DPS queues? Too bad." If you want to dps, play a dps, and take the benefits and detriments that go with it. Same goes for tanking and healing, two roles that traditionally haven't really been exactly damage dealers.

This is the pure problem I have with it. It's bad business. Catering to the smaller group is a bad way to make money. Again I don't care if SE does this as I would be part of the more catered to group. However, it would seem to be a bad business decision to do so. If SE knows how to do anything at all, it's that it knows how to make money.

And a lot of people find it extremely unattractive. "my way or the highway" was never said, and you just sound hyper-defensive about the ability to play as a glorified dps while tanking. If you like this sorry state of affairs then you're free to, but don't shove words in someone's mouth and then complain that THEY have an attitude.

First of all I'm not defensive at all. I could really care less if they wanna make tanks walls again. Do you honestly think that tank numbers would stay up they way the are now? That's the question I'm asking.

Quite frankly, I'd play a tank class either way. I played PLD through 2.0 and generally play defensive/ support tanks in alot of games. However, Queues for all roles are very low right now and that would probably be due to a very good balance of class roles in DF. The only fault that I feel was in the argument above is that DPS should have to wait because they should probably know what they are getting into. It's a very base and insulting argument.

New players pick out roles purely because of fun factor and looks... even if they didnt and just picked a job at the beginning of the game then it's very likely that they would pick a DPS roles. There are simply more of them. Saying that they are lesser because they are DPS is not an argument as to why they should change tank into a defensive role. They could increase party size to 5, cut tank to 1 in all instancees. That would potentially work, but then you'd be increasing a roles queue instead of lessening anothers. Wait times are low and are being catered to the entire audience. There is a huge amount of tanks and healers that feel that they shouldn't have to wait in a queue because they are taking on a "harder" role. You and her may very well not be in that category, but saying it doesn't exist is just putting on blinders. For the first time in a MMO that I've played this is at a minimum. Class roles are wanted pretty universally and a truly good DPS is as valued as a good tank or healer. This is great. Maybe not the method they chose to employ to get there, but the results are there.

Oh and don't do the thing about shoving words in my mouth yourself. Makes for a backwards argument.

[Anthius]

Yeah an old post but really? Not long queue times back in 2.0-2.1? I gained atleast 3 levels crafting and gathering material for crafting per queue wait. I spent the rest of the 2.x patch doing dungeons/roulets as a tank cause of the 30+min queues as dps at the start. Now in 3.0 I get on my monk, select a duty, go on the queue (solo) it's about 20 seconds of waiting, rarely longer than 1min.

I guess Cerbeus didn't have tanks back in 2.0 and they migrated here from other servers during 2.1-2.5

/shrug.

As for people who don't enjoy the tanking meta in this game, don't tank. I see no reason to play as a class you don't like, but guess that's just me being weird.

/shrug

My bad on phrasing there by 2.0 I meant 2.X generally I don't remember 2.0 well enough but I don't remember 30 min wait times either, aside from right after the patch ninja's were released where we had hour long queues. Back then when I was queuing as dps it was 5-15 min as melee, and when I tried queuing as my ninja earlier this week it was more than 10 minutes before it popped.
Though thinking about it I do remember queues taking longer as a caster back then, to the point where I believe ranged dps gets a different queue than the melee for some reason, maybe something happened with the balance of casters vs melee to even out the queue times? I'm not even sure if that's how it works but from my experience in the 2.x patches it seemed to

I don't know, it's speculation I don't have the numbers.

As for someone's earlier comments on tanks being boring to play and eating while raiding. I think that's less class design and more on the fights since most fights seem to have less mechanics for the tanks to deal with than the rest of the raid.

[Duelle]

When i queued DPS in 2.x it was 15 minutes +. Could be server dependent, but in 2.0 it was downright awful. I waited for queues at level 50 for 20-30 minutes. Now that eased with time, but that time also brought increases to tank DPS and the reformation of WAR's toolkit. Could be coincidence though. Even by reading the forums though, there seems to be a large influx of new tanks, but im incapable of getting hard data on this as it's not my database.

This is server dependent and doesn't mean much overall. The displayed average wait time is less than it was, that much is true. Solo queues still take a lot longer.

The idea is to make tank a more "attractive role". That way more people play it. DPS players are paying subscribers too, they should not be treated as lesser because they don't wanna play a tank.

DPS are not lesser people for not wanting to tank or heal. The issue is that DPS is a heavily populated role because people in general don't like responsibility for anything in a group, and regardless of how much SE goes out of their way to make DPS jobs unattractive (see: most of the HW DPS designs), this principle will remain true.

Because of said principle DPS is a highly populated role, and anyone who has played MMOs before knows that DPS have longer queues because of it. It's something that comes with the job, just like how a wipe is blamed on the tank and the tank dying is blamed on the healer. What doesn't help is that leveling outside of dungeons in this expansion is either stupidly convoluted with no player control (FATEs) or so inconvenient to even do (temple leves) that you feel the sting of the queues more than usual.

The issue isnt that the tank meta is -wrong-

I'll beg to differ. The meta basically spits in the face of one of the elements that makes a tank what they are. Gameplay design aside, that's a pretty big red flag.

The only way to fix it so both parties are happy is to ensure that there's positives and negatives to both styles of tanking - that you CAN run a squishy dps stance tank that does a buttload of dps, and that this is viable and a good strategy if your healers can cope. But conversely, there needs to be reasons for the super tough brick wall tank that maximises their mitigation to ALSO be viable.

This is still a losing proposition because one will always be better than the other, and thus the cycle will repeat. Hence why I said earlier that in the end, someone's feelings are going to get hurt. I can only hope it's not mine.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

This is server dependent and doesn't mean much overall. The displayed average wait time is less than it was, that much is true. Solo queues still take a lot longer.
DPS are not lesser people for not wanting to tank or heal. The issue is that DPS is a heavily populated role because people in general don't like responsibility for anything in a group, and regardless of how much SE goes out of their way to make DPS jobs unattractive (see: most of the HW DPS designs), this principle will remain true.

Because of said principle DPS is a highly populated role, and anyone who has played MMOs before knows that DPS have longer queues because of it. It's something that comes with the job, just like how a wipe is blamed on the tank and the tank dying is blamed on the healer. What doesn't help is that leveling outside of dungeons in this expansion is either stupidly convoluted with no player control (FATEs) or so inconvenient to even do (temple leves) that you feel the sting of the queues more than usual.

I'll beg to differ. The meta basically spits in the face of one of the elements that makes a tank what they are. Gameplay design aside, that's a pretty big red flag.
This is still a losing proposition because one will always be better than the other, and thus the cycle will repeat. Hence why I said earlier that in the end, someone's feelings are going to get hurt. I can only hope it's not mine.

Actually doing damage is a form of damage mitigation because dead things can't hurt you. The more outgoing damage going in a raid the less stress you put on the healers as well.

If you can kill it in 10 minutes rather then 20, that saves the healers a TON of Mana.

Unfortunately this game is designed around killing things as fast as possible. Classes should reflect that.

But conversely, there needs to be reasons for the super tough brick wall tank that maximises their mitigation to ALSO be viable.

That seems kind of lazy honestly. Mitigation is simply passive defense and most fighters in real life didn't just sit back and soak hits. They knew that if they didn't fight back people would just wail on them because what can they do about it? That isn't intimidating and a brick wall isn't intimidating, and a tanks job first and foremost has NEVER been about damage absorbion. It has always BEEN about holding aggro and keeping threat.

That is why you look and have to feel as threatening as possible. Not be a joke that can't do anything to an enemy.

So TL;DR
It would never work, because a giant brick wall simply isn't threatening. Its something you walk around and ignore.

[Kacho_Nacho]

Actually doing damage is a form of damage mitigation because dead things can't hurt you. The more outgoing damage going in a raid the less stress you put on the healers as well.

If you can kill it in 10 minutes rather then 20, that saves the healers a TON of Mana.

Unfortunately this game is designed around killing things as fast as possible. Classes should reflect that.

That seems kind of lazy honestly. Mitigation is simply passive defense and most fighters in real life didn't just sit back and soak hits. They knew that if they didn't fight back people would just wail on them because what can they do about it? That isn't intimidating and a brick wall isn't intimidating, and a tanks job first and foremost has NEVER been about damage absorption. It has always BEEN about holding aggro and keeping threat.

That is why you look and have to feel as threatening as possible. Not be a joke that can't do anything to an enemy.

So TL;DR
It would never work, because a giant brick wall simply isn't threatening. It's something you walk around and ignore.

Oh dear lord... do you really think a tank focusing on her mitigation is just standing there? She's not. She slamming her shield right in your face and smacking you around like crazy. Meanwhile, every time you attempt smack her back, she either blocks your attack or laughs in your face. "Is that all you've got?"

Something you walk around and ignore? Please... She'll be on you like a bulldog like a slab of bacon all the way.

I do agree killing things quickly is a form of damage mitigation. However, I feel killing things quickly is why you bring damage dealers, not tanks and healers. Those guys have different roles.

Tanks hold aggro/threat and survive through the big attacks. Healers keep everyone alive. Their classes should reflect that.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

Oh dear lord... do you really think a tank focusing on her mitigation is just standing there? She's not. She slamming her shield right in your face and smacking you around like crazy. Meanwhile, every time you attempt smack her back, she either blocks your attack or laughs in your face. "Is that all you've got?"

Something you walk around and ignore? Please... She'll be on you like a bulldog like a slab of bacon all the way.

I do agree killing things quickly is a form of damage mitigation. However, I feel killing things quickly is why you bring damage dealers, not tanks and healers. Those guys have different roles.

Tanks hold aggro/threat and survive through the big attacks. Healers keep everyone alive. Their classes should reflect that.

Not really. I would be moving around her and attacking her vulnerable allies. Sorry you disagree but its logic. Why attack the guy whose barely doing anything? Honestly, they would not even be there against your shield. They would be walking around you and killing your friends.

Speed is also important. One of the best Tanks in Everquest? RANGER. They could take threat and literally kite things around.

Your way too obsessed with roles to see the big picture.

[AniCelestine]

..She slamming her shield right in your face and smacking you around like crazy. Meanwhile, every time you attempt smack her back, she either blocks your attack or laughs in your face. "Is that all you've got?"...

So.. you want to be tickling the monster and add some new sills called "verbal abuse" which will give you a mechanic that'll give you a variety of provocative questions to throw and the question you select is either "super effective, effective, 'the threatening remark fell onto deaf ears' at monsters who most certainly don't know English?

Or do you mean we redo all the tank classes to have shield and all other skills but 1-2-3 aggro combo is turned inot same skills that triggers a block that reduces inc. Dmg by 90%?

Oh but I nearly forgot the "smacking you like crazy" part. Does this mean you're dealing alot of damage? Or does this mean you're doing alot of tickling on the boat? Cause the first point would conflict with the idea of "tanks shouldn't be dealing alot of dmg" I understood you were against.

However, I feel killing things quickly is why you bring damage dealers

And it'd conflict with this point too.

And I guess soloing old content as warrior shan't be something fun to do anymore. Because of this point:

Hence why I said earlier that in the end, someone's feelings are going to get hurt. I can only hope it's not mine.

[Kacho_Nacho]

So.. you want to be tickling the monster and add some new sills called "verbal abuse" which will give you a mechanic that'll give you a variety of provocative questions to throw and the question you select is either "super effective, effective, 'the threatening remark fell onto deaf ears' at monsters who most certainly don't know English?

Or do you mean we redo all the tank classes to have shield and all other skills but 1-2-3 aggro combo is turned inot same skills that triggers a block that reduces inc. Dmg by 90%?

Oh but I nearly forgot the "smacking you like crazy" part. Does this mean you're dealing alot of damage? Or does this mean you're doing alot of tickling on the boat? Cause the first point would conflict with the idea of "tanks shouldn't be dealing a lot of dmg" I understood you were against.

And it'd conflict with this point too.

And I guess soloing old content as warrior shan't be something fun to do anymore. Because of this point:

What are you going on about? Tickling? Threatening remarks? Tank not doing a lot of damage I understand you were up against? You are so out in left field... just wow.

My entire point is a tank who is worried about mitigation will still be doing damage. They don't just stand there like an anvil waiting to be beat against.

They have to keep hitting the mob to keep threat. So, doing respectable damage is important. However, they don't inflict as much damage as a damage dealer because that's not their role.

If a warrior did as much damage as a dragoon or monk, there wouldn't be much reason to bring any melee DPS would there?

Furthermore, while they are being beat against by the mob, they have to survive. That means the tank must have some form of mitigation. High health only goes so far.

There is no need to overhaul the existing system. All that needs to be done is to make the current "tanky" equipment relevant. In other words, stats like high armor value, parry, and vitality should be have value for a tank wishing to do current content.

Ultimately, tanks should have three valid gearing strategies. All Str, my favorite- a mix of Str and Vit, or all Vit.