Four Ways to Die - why the Tank Meta feels "off".

[Nadirah]

Bribing people to play tanks by letting them psuedo dps results in "tanks" that can't hold aggro for crap because they only think their damage counts.

I'm a wall tank. My job is holding stuff and pissing it off so it punches me and not the guy stabbing him in the arse. I should want to make that easier.

I *hate* the dps meta they shove on both tanks and healers.

And people complaining about queues going up because of tank shortage after... You're playing dps. You should expect it. It's the most attractive role. There's more of them.

[karateorangutang]

Have they though? You're saying you notice more tanks. I myself haven't noticed any difference in the number of people playing tanks, none of the people I know, have switched, and in fact some people I know who do play tanks have stopped. My wait time as a melee dps in 2.0 was never long aside from when ninja's were first released and it's not really any different now so I don't notice this big influx of more tanks you seem to be talking about.

That being said I do think tanks should contribute to DPS, maybe a little less than they are now but not much. That is really up to SE who have the numbers to decide on where they want it to be though.

I honestly hope while they're adjusting numbers for tanks in 3.2 they remove the damage reduction from tank stances. Tanks should be at their best while tanking, and for me dropping my tank stance while tanking a boss just feels wrong. I do it, but I don't like it.

Just look at DPS queue times.

When i queued DPS in 2.x it was 15 minutes +. Could be server dependent, but in 2.0 it was downright awful. I waited for queues at level 50 for 20-30 minutes. Now that eased with time, but that time also brought increases to tank DPS and the reformation of WAR's toolkit. Could be coincidence though. Even by reading the forums though, there seems to be a large influx of new tanks, but im incapable of getting hard data on this as it's not my database.

In 3.0 I have only waited more than 10 minutes once. Queues are generally under 5 minutes leveling and at cap. Its the shortest I've ever experienced. Again could possibly be data center specific.

Bribing people to play tanks by letting them psuedo dps results in "tanks" that can't hold aggro for crap because they only think their damage counts.

I'm a wall tank. My job is holding stuff and pissing it off so it punches me and not the guy stabbing him in the arse. I should want to make that easier.

I *hate* the dps meta they shove on both tanks and healers.

And people complaining about queues going up because of tank shortage after... You're playing dps. You should expect it. It's the most attractive role. There's more of them.

Ok, so its my way or the highway. Got it.

The idea is to make tank a more "attractive role". That way more people play it. DPS players are paying subscribers too, they should not be treated as lesser because they don't wanna play a tank. If you play tank cause that is fun for you then great, maybe you should hit a checkbox and wait in line behind the people that play it out of duty. Thats essentially the connection you are making.

I've never understood the whole "I'm a tank so you gotta listen to my attitude." It's ridiculous.

[RyuRoots]

Ok, so its my way or the highway. Got it.

The idea is to make tank a more "attractive role". That way more people play it. DPS players are paying subscribers too, they should not be treated as lesser because they don't wanna play a tank. If you play tank cause that is fun for you then great, maybe you should hit a checkbox and wait in line behind the people that play it out of duty. Thats essentially the connection you are making.

I've never understood the whole "I'm a tank so you gotta listen to my attitude." It's ridiculous.

And a lot of people find it extremely unattractive. "my way or the highway" was never said, and you just sound hyper-defensive about the ability to play as a glorified dps while tanking. If you like this sorry state of affairs then you're free to, but don't shove words in someone's mouth and then complain that THEY have an attitude.

[Duelle]

When i queued DPS in 2.x it was 15 minutes +. Could be server dependent, but in 2.0 it was downright awful. I waited for queues at level 50 for 20-30 minutes. Now that eased with time, but that time also brought increases to tank DPS and the reformation of WAR's toolkit. Could be coincidence though. Even by reading the forums though, there seems to be a large influx of new tanks, but im incapable of getting hard data on this as it's not my database.

This is server dependent and doesn't mean much overall. The displayed average wait time is less than it was, that much is true. Solo queues still take a lot longer.

The idea is to make tank a more "attractive role". That way more people play it. DPS players are paying subscribers too, they should not be treated as lesser because they don't wanna play a tank.

DPS are not lesser people for not wanting to tank or heal. The issue is that DPS is a heavily populated role because people in general don't like responsibility for anything in a group, and regardless of how much SE goes out of their way to make DPS jobs unattractive (see: most of the HW DPS designs), this principle will remain true.

Because of said principle DPS is a highly populated role, and anyone who has played MMOs before knows that DPS have longer queues because of it. It's something that comes with the job, just like how a wipe is blamed on the tank and the tank dying is blamed on the healer. What doesn't help is that leveling outside of dungeons in this expansion is either stupidly convoluted with no player control (FATEs) or so inconvenient to even do (temple leves) that you feel the sting of the queues more than usual.

The issue isnt that the tank meta is -wrong-

I'll beg to differ. The meta basically spits in the face of one of the elements that makes a tank what they are. Gameplay design aside, that's a pretty big red flag.

The only way to fix it so both parties are happy is to ensure that there's positives and negatives to both styles of tanking - that you CAN run a squishy dps stance tank that does a buttload of dps, and that this is viable and a good strategy if your healers can cope. But conversely, there needs to be reasons for the super tough brick wall tank that maximises their mitigation to ALSO be viable.

This is still a losing proposition because one will always be better than the other, and thus the cycle will repeat. Hence why I said earlier that in the end, someone's feelings are going to get hurt. I can only hope it's not mine.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

This is server dependent and doesn't mean much overall. The displayed average wait time is less than it was, that much is true. Solo queues still take a lot longer.
DPS are not lesser people for not wanting to tank or heal. The issue is that DPS is a heavily populated role because people in general don't like responsibility for anything in a group, and regardless of how much SE goes out of their way to make DPS jobs unattractive (see: most of the HW DPS designs), this principle will remain true.

Because of said principle DPS is a highly populated role, and anyone who has played MMOs before knows that DPS have longer queues because of it. It's something that comes with the job, just like how a wipe is blamed on the tank and the tank dying is blamed on the healer. What doesn't help is that leveling outside of dungeons in this expansion is either stupidly convoluted with no player control (FATEs) or so inconvenient to even do (temple leves) that you feel the sting of the queues more than usual.

I'll beg to differ. The meta basically spits in the face of one of the elements that makes a tank what they are. Gameplay design aside, that's a pretty big red flag.
This is still a losing proposition because one will always be better than the other, and thus the cycle will repeat. Hence why I said earlier that in the end, someone's feelings are going to get hurt. I can only hope it's not mine.

Actually doing damage is a form of damage mitigation because dead things can't hurt you. The more outgoing damage going in a raid the less stress you put on the healers as well.

If you can kill it in 10 minutes rather then 20, that saves the healers a TON of Mana.

Unfortunately this game is designed around killing things as fast as possible. Classes should reflect that.

But conversely, there needs to be reasons for the super tough brick wall tank that maximises their mitigation to ALSO be viable.

That seems kind of lazy honestly. Mitigation is simply passive defense and most fighters in real life didn't just sit back and soak hits. They knew that if they didn't fight back people would just wail on them because what can they do about it? That isn't intimidating and a brick wall isn't intimidating, and a tanks job first and foremost has NEVER been about damage absorbion. It has always BEEN about holding aggro and keeping threat.

That is why you look and have to feel as threatening as possible. Not be a joke that can't do anything to an enemy.

So TL;DR
It would never work, because a giant brick wall simply isn't threatening. Its something you walk around and ignore.

[Kacho_Nacho]

Actually doing damage is a form of damage mitigation because dead things can't hurt you. The more outgoing damage going in a raid the less stress you put on the healers as well.

If you can kill it in 10 minutes rather then 20, that saves the healers a TON of Mana.

Unfortunately this game is designed around killing things as fast as possible. Classes should reflect that.

That seems kind of lazy honestly. Mitigation is simply passive defense and most fighters in real life didn't just sit back and soak hits. They knew that if they didn't fight back people would just wail on them because what can they do about it? That isn't intimidating and a brick wall isn't intimidating, and a tanks job first and foremost has NEVER been about damage absorption. It has always BEEN about holding aggro and keeping threat.

That is why you look and have to feel as threatening as possible. Not be a joke that can't do anything to an enemy.

So TL;DR
It would never work, because a giant brick wall simply isn't threatening. It's something you walk around and ignore.

Oh dear lord... do you really think a tank focusing on her mitigation is just standing there? She's not. She slamming her shield right in your face and smacking you around like crazy. Meanwhile, every time you attempt smack her back, she either blocks your attack or laughs in your face. "Is that all you've got?"

Something you walk around and ignore? Please... She'll be on you like a bulldog like a slab of bacon all the way.

I do agree killing things quickly is a form of damage mitigation. However, I feel killing things quickly is why you bring damage dealers, not tanks and healers. Those guys have different roles.

Tanks hold aggro/threat and survive through the big attacks. Healers keep everyone alive. Their classes should reflect that.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

Oh dear lord... do you really think a tank focusing on her mitigation is just standing there? She's not. She slamming her shield right in your face and smacking you around like crazy. Meanwhile, every time you attempt smack her back, she either blocks your attack or laughs in your face. "Is that all you've got?"

Something you walk around and ignore? Please... She'll be on you like a bulldog like a slab of bacon all the way.

I do agree killing things quickly is a form of damage mitigation. However, I feel killing things quickly is why you bring damage dealers, not tanks and healers. Those guys have different roles.

Tanks hold aggro/threat and survive through the big attacks. Healers keep everyone alive. Their classes should reflect that.

Not really. I would be moving around her and attacking her vulnerable allies. Sorry you disagree but its logic. Why attack the guy whose barely doing anything? Honestly, they would not even be there against your shield. They would be walking around you and killing your friends.

Speed is also important. One of the best Tanks in Everquest? RANGER. They could take threat and literally kite things around.

Your way too obsessed with roles to see the big picture.

[AniCelestine]

..She slamming her shield right in your face and smacking you around like crazy. Meanwhile, every time you attempt smack her back, she either blocks your attack or laughs in your face. "Is that all you've got?"...

So.. you want to be tickling the monster and add some new sills called "verbal abuse" which will give you a mechanic that'll give you a variety of provocative questions to throw and the question you select is either "super effective, effective, 'the threatening remark fell onto deaf ears' at monsters who most certainly don't know English?

Or do you mean we redo all the tank classes to have shield and all other skills but 1-2-3 aggro combo is turned inot same skills that triggers a block that reduces inc. Dmg by 90%?

Oh but I nearly forgot the "smacking you like crazy" part. Does this mean you're dealing alot of damage? Or does this mean you're doing alot of tickling on the boat? Cause the first point would conflict with the idea of "tanks shouldn't be dealing alot of dmg" I understood you were against.

However, I feel killing things quickly is why you bring damage dealers

And it'd conflict with this point too.

And I guess soloing old content as warrior shan't be something fun to do anymore. Because of this point:

Hence why I said earlier that in the end, someone's feelings are going to get hurt. I can only hope it's not mine.

[Kacho_Nacho]

So.. you want to be tickling the monster and add some new sills called "verbal abuse" which will give you a mechanic that'll give you a variety of provocative questions to throw and the question you select is either "super effective, effective, 'the threatening remark fell onto deaf ears' at monsters who most certainly don't know English?

Or do you mean we redo all the tank classes to have shield and all other skills but 1-2-3 aggro combo is turned inot same skills that triggers a block that reduces inc. Dmg by 90%?

Oh but I nearly forgot the "smacking you like crazy" part. Does this mean you're dealing alot of damage? Or does this mean you're doing alot of tickling on the boat? Cause the first point would conflict with the idea of "tanks shouldn't be dealing a lot of dmg" I understood you were against.

And it'd conflict with this point too.

And I guess soloing old content as warrior shan't be something fun to do anymore. Because of this point:

What are you going on about? Tickling? Threatening remarks? Tank not doing a lot of damage I understand you were up against? You are so out in left field... just wow.

My entire point is a tank who is worried about mitigation will still be doing damage. They don't just stand there like an anvil waiting to be beat against.

They have to keep hitting the mob to keep threat. So, doing respectable damage is important. However, they don't inflict as much damage as a damage dealer because that's not their role.

If a warrior did as much damage as a dragoon or monk, there wouldn't be much reason to bring any melee DPS would there?

Furthermore, while they are being beat against by the mob, they have to survive. That means the tank must have some form of mitigation. High health only goes so far.

There is no need to overhaul the existing system. All that needs to be done is to make the current "tanky" equipment relevant. In other words, stats like high armor value, parry, and vitality should be have value for a tank wishing to do current content.

Ultimately, tanks should have three valid gearing strategies. All Str, my favorite- a mix of Str and Vit, or all Vit.

[karateorangutang]

This is server dependent and doesn't mean much overall. The displayed average wait time is less than it was, that much is true. Solo queues still take a lot longer.
DPS are not lesser people for not wanting to tank or heal. The issue is that DPS is a heavily populated role because people in general don't like responsibility for anything in a group, and regardless of how much SE goes out of their way to make DPS jobs unattractive (see: most of the HW DPS designs), this principle will remain true.

Because of said principle DPS is a highly populated role, and anyone who has played MMOs before knows that DPS have longer queues because of it. It's something that comes with the job, just like how a wipe is blamed on the tank and the tank dying is blamed on the healer. What doesn't help is that leveling outside of dungeons in this expansion is either stupidly convoluted with no player control (FATEs) or so inconvenient to even do (temple leves) that you feel the sting of the queues more than usual

Well according to the Eorzea census role distribution form 31-60 is 38% healer + tank and 62% DPS which is actually pretty darn close to the distribution in a party make up if you factor in the 24 man raids as well. I'd also be willing to bet that the number of tanks has grown since the release of heavensward. So yes, while the data clearly states that DPS is a more popular role, I don't think it's as far off as people realize.

Additionally, from a business standpoint. If all players are paying the same amount of money into a pot then all players should in essence be given the same service. This includes all things in the game. Isn't it SE's contractual commitment, as a service organization in this instance, then to make the experience as similarly enjoyable for all parties? I've never met someone that didn't get excited by a instant queue. I understand that that is the "status quo" in the MMO world. I don't buy though that any company or person should settle for that because its the "status quo".

Maybe that makes me an idealist, but the world needs those too. This board is just filled with pessimism.

Do excuse my typo, on phone at breaks from work, can't see everything on the tiny screen, thus signature.

It did make me giggle though as I pictured my 1000k DPS in my head .