Immersion, The Facts & Fiction

[Lyndis]

This is probably the worst immersion thread ever.

I'm sorry Konachibi but most of your argument has little to do with the definition or the understanding of immersion.

No game can just be judged as a whole. That's why when people try to give a game a rating they often break it down into things like: Sound, graphics, gameplay, etc.

Now as for immersion in a game and what contributes to it... Almost every aspect that developers create for a game IS meant to add immersion to the game. That does not mean it is successful, and sometimes developers will sacrifice immersion for convience with the user interface. For example, lets look at those categories that I mentioned people rate games on. Sound, music and sound effects add to the idea that you are inside the world, adding to immersion. Graphics, aesthetics and effects help a player understand and feel like they are a part of a real fantasy world. Gameplay, things like combat and gear customization is made so that you can feel like you are a clever and powerful warrior and you can be this in your own style and preferences, like you would be able to if you actually lived in that world.

So I've picked three INDIVIDUAL things that contribute to a game and they all have to do with immersion. So it may be true that the entire game is made up of things to increase immersion (which is why immersion is so important) but that does not mean that certain aspects of the game can't be fixed to increase or decrease the effect of the immersion. Simply because you say THE ENTIRE GAME IS THE ENTIRE GAME AND WE MUST LOOK AT IT AS A WHOLE, does not change that the game is made up of numerous aspects to make it a whole.

[Konachibi]

This is probably the worst immersion thread ever.

I'm sorry Konachibi but most of your argument has little to do with the definition or the understanding of immersion.

No game can just be judged as a whole. That's why when people try to give a game a rating they often break it down into things like: Sound, graphics, gameplay, etc.

Now as for immersion in a game and what contributes to it... Almost every aspect that developers create for a game IS meant to add immersion to the game. That does not mean it is successful, and sometimes developers will sacrifice immersion for convience with the user interface. For example, lets look at those categories that I mentioned people rate games on. Sound, music and sound effects add to the idea that you are inside the world, adding to immersion. Graphics, aesthetics and effects help a player understand and feel like they are a part of a real fantasy world. Gameplay, things like combat and gear customization is made so that you can feel like you are a clever and powerful warrior and you can be this in your own style and preferences, like you would be able to if you actually lived in that world.

So I've picked three INDIVIDUAL things that contribute to a game and they all have to do with immersion. So it may be true that the entire game is made up of things to increase immersion (which is why immersion is so important) but that does not mean that certain aspects of the game can't be fixed to increase or decrease the effect of the immersion. Simply because you say THE ENTIRE GAME IS THE ENTIRE GAME AND WE MUST LOOK AT IT AS A WHOLE, does not change that the game is made up of numerous aspects to make it a whole.

Which is... exactly what I said.

Anyways, this thread needs more Grandia: Linkables

You wanna talk immersion, go play that all the way through first, then you'll truly know what it means to be immersed in a video game

[Lyndis]

I'm sorry I'm going to use a second post to address the second section of your argument.

Yes, fantasy is not real. And trying to argue otherwise is quite silly. I mean even in a game like the sims, it's hard to say "This is just like real life." I think we all understand this though, another reason why this thread is so completely pointless. We know what fantasy means. Now I think you need to be reminded a few somethings about the fantasy genre.

Fantasy may not be the same as our reality, but there are a lot of similarities. Why? Because nothing can be created that isn't already created. We combine truths from our realities to make fake realities. Like putting a horn (horns do exist we did not create the concept or horns and it is not a 'fantasy' term) and putting it on a horse (also not a part of fantasy) and all of a sudden we have a unicorn. We consider a Unicorn 'Fantasy' though it is made up of very real ideas that are not even close to unique. Even 'magic' comes from the simple idea of an unexplained event. There is still magic in this world despite our incredible knowledge of the universe. It is simply things we don't understand. So a fantasy world takes that concept and tries to make unexplained occurrences happen more often. This is basic philosophy to say that humans can not create something that doesn't exist, which is only argument number one that fantasy is very closely related to reality.

Second of all, something that should be extremely obvious but it seems overlooked. You act like due to their definitions fantasy and realism have nothing in common (which is literally impossible due to the above argument). But now lets try to imagine a world where they at least have the fewest things in common. Are you imagining a world like Final Fantasy? Then you're probably doing it wrong. By your definition Fantasy shouldn't be ingrained in realism so that means things like physics shouldn't exist, we can now float and walk upside down at will, but we are not sure what up and down are anyways. Dirt shouldn't be brown. People shouldn't wear clothes and they should all have arms sprouting out their heads. Airships don't actually fly they just appear at their location, even when someone boarded the same airship as you it is possible for you to arrive at different times. Stats wouldn't be coherent because nothing is constant. I could go on... My point is that a world like this may be exciting and interesting for a little bit, but it doesn't hold our attention. Things HAVE to make sense even in a fantasy world. Some of the best MAGIC systems (something that doesn't exist as it does in a fantasy world) have roots and reasons that actually make sense, utilizing things like physics or famous past philosophies were easy to believe (Like Aristotle's elements that made up the world).

So quit saying that Fantasy can't have anything in common with the real world. Because that's insane and doesn't make any sense.

[Lyndis]

Which is... exactly what I said.

Anyways, this thread needs more Grandia: Linkables

You wanna talk immersion, go play that all the way through first, then you'll truly know what it means to be immersed in a video game

I'm very sorry if I misunderstood you. But I got confused when you said things like the mini map cannot decrease the immersion. Mini-maps don't spawn out of no where into our sight. This isn't the biggest thing that decreases immersion due to it being well designed. Every aspect of a game, even a small part of the UI can decrease immersion, especially when it completely defies real world logic in a way we've never seen before and can not be explained through lore.

Please excuse all my post... I'm going to take a break now ^^;

[Konachibi]

I said a fantasy game *could* be as unrealistic and fantastical as it *wants* to be, not that it *has* to be.

[Konachibi]

I'm very sorry if I misunderstood you. But I got confused when you said things like the mini map cannot decrease the immersion. Mini-maps don't spawn out of no where into our sight. This isn't the biggest thing that decreases immersion due to it being well designed. Every aspect of a game, even a small part of the UI can decrease immersion, especially when it completely defies real world logic in a way we've never seen before and can not be explained through lore.

Please excuse all my post... I'm going to take a break now ^^;

Now you're mixing realism with fantasy as grounds for immersion. As I said, fantasy doesn't *have* to be realistic to be immersive. Jazz Jackrabbit is a fantasy action game, I can run around as a human-sized green rabbit with a laser gun blowing up everything in sight and leaping 50 metres into the air. Where's the realism in that?

Also of note, re-read what i said about our universe.

Things don't have to be explained in order for them to exist.

[Crica]

This is OT, but I wanted to respond to your signature, Lyndis...

{{{You don't need a reason to help someone}}}

Well... it depends on what they need help with...

Would you need a reason to help me steal your friend's car?

^_^;

[Caliburn]

It's a FFIX reference. Zidane said it. And... yes that is slightly off-topic lol.

Let's not derail here, guys.

[Finuve]

This is OT, but I wanted to respond to your signature, Lyndis...

{{{You don't need a reason to help someone}}}

Well... it depends on what they need help with...

Would you need a reason to help me steal your friend's car?

^_^;

leaving the quote in its FF9 context it will always mean helping someone in need in a positive moral way

[Verecund]

So if SE were to add a black box over half the screen with the BBC news, that wouldn't remove any sense of immersion to you. because it would be part of the game?

Finally, something in Ul'dah to look at besides bots crafting all day...


On topic - I've always viewed 'immersion', when applied to RPGs, as the level of interaction you can have with the world itself. When I think of immersion I literally think of games like Morrowind, EVE, Witcher/DragonAge, Neverwinter Nights, etc., where each game has sort of its own unique yet recognizable niche regarding immersion (and a level which most MMOs, including this one, would be hard pressed to achieve, though I also think that this game is sorely lacking in 'immersion qualities' in general). When I think of immersion, I also think of tits.