/p Blood Price used, WHMs do not use Holy for 15 seconds <se.1>

[Imoen]

Look at you, Term ninja! Using it is fine, just don't forget who brought it to the table

Off topic: Lol I had to go back and read what you were talking bout lol oddly enough I call it this all the time in person, probably read it in your post here and decided it was ok to say here. lol Damn catchy names. lol

[Iagainsti]

Off topic: Lol I had to go back and read what you were talking bout lol oddly enough I call it this all the time in person, probably read it in your post here and decided it was ok to say here. lol Damn catchy names. lol

Lol, don't mind me, I'm just being a dork.

But they've been around since days of yore.

"...then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in My sight, shall snuff it."

So off point, but I said Holy Bombs, Not Holy Grenade

[Imoen]

snip

snip

LOL Forgot all about that movie. I feel ashamed. Been a long time since ive heard a reference to it lol

great, now I gotta load it up in the background here at work lol Thanks alot! lol

Wish it would get locked.

[Iagainsti]

But they've been around since days of yore.



p.s. I can't believe this argument is still going ... actually, I sadly can.

Can we all agree on this then?

When thy Party of Adventurers containeth one Mage of the White and One Knight of the Dark, lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, not once, not twice, but sixeth timeth done,who, being naughty in My sight, shall snuff it, in which thy Darkest of Knights shall popeth thy Blood of thy Highest Priceth after seven, not eight, of thy precious seconds, to gaineth said fuel to pulleth thee next pack of foes.

[Imoen]

snip

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0wOD9TWynM

[TouchandFeel]

Well, as for the argument at hand I take neither side as I feel both are partially right and partially wrong.

I just think people should take the following stance at this point.

[Kabooa]

Guy on the left is the white mage. :3

[Rahal]

I think by far the worst healers or DRKs are the ones that think that Blood Price is based on damage taken, and so refuse to use any sort of mitigation (Adlo, Eye for an Eye, Virus, Disable, Bole, Nocturnal Benefic, Stoneskin or Holy) because they think that the bigger the ht you take, the more MP you gain.

It's actually a fixed 5% MP back per hit, and there is a hard limit on the amount of hits you can take per second. Note that this is the same MP return as a single Syphon Strike.

Also note that it is based on being hit. You can be hit for 0 and still gain MP back.

I've ran into so many bad SCHs that refuse to Adlo me because they think it will cause me to run out of MP faster. I've also ran into many a bad DRK that refuses to use Defensive CDs with BP up because they are convinced it will giv them less MP back.

Also the fact that you need to have taken a hit to get back MP also makes old content like Titan EX, Leviathan EX, Ramuh EX, T5, T8 and T9 infuriating to tank due to a combination of slow/no auto attacks, phase skipping, or the boss just outright missing you due to level correction.

[DreamWeaver]

@Rahal
:O, I'm happy to admit I'm one of the idiots that didn't know BP works that way (Somebody else mentioned keeping BP for heavy damage phases, so I assumed it is determined by damage taken ).

Any idea what is the hard limit you can get hit per second?

I mean, 5% per mob hit seems to be a hell lotta MP recovered IMHO, wondering even if DRK and WHM locked horns (Holy and BP activated together), is the 8 seconds remaining on BP after the 7 second stun wore off not enough to recover the MP you used?

[Syzygian]

@Rahal
:O, I'm happy to admit I'm one of the idiots that didn't know BP works that way (Somebody else mentioned keeping BP for heavy damage phases, so I assumed it is determined by damage taken ).

Any idea what is the hard limit you can get hit per second?

I mean, 5% per mob hit seems to be a hell lotta MP recovered IMHO, wondering even if DRK and WHM locked horns (Holy and BP activated together), is the 8 seconds remaining on BP after the 7 second stun wore off not enough to recover the MP you used?

and there is a hard limit on the amount of hits you can take per second. Note that this is the same MP return as a single Syphon Strike.

I've never heard or observed anything about a hard limit, as 884 (Syphon Strike) does not divide evenly into 353 (Blood Price) and I've seen over half a dozen hits regening 353MP a piece trigger in under a second, so I'd say Rahal's numbers are not correct here. You can prove this simply by putting BP up before the 4-hit cleave on the first boss of Fractal. When it goes off it triggers 4 returns of 353MP in under a second for a total of 1412 MP. You can also test it by doing an extremely large pull and spamming Abyssal Drain. Repeated Abyssal Drain usage even combined with Darkside's drain (-972MP per GCD + -127MP per server tick) is not enough to cause you to suffer a net MP loss on its own if you are tanking enough trash with Blood Price up.

Maximizing DPS and hate during BP's duration on a large pull is close to 1000 MP every GCD (Abyssal Drain spam), more if you factor in drain from Darkside, so over the course of BPs duration a DRK will burn through over 7K MP at least, which is in excess of their total MP pool. BP returns exactly 353 MP per hit you take even if that hit does zero damage, so if you're tanking 8 mobs and they're each hitting you once every GCD, just as a hypothetical, that's almost 17K MP restored over 15s.

Over the course of a large pull a DRK will use Unmend, Unleash, and Abyssal Drain all at least once, before getting everything into position. Unmend to start, Unleash if you get a free proc or if you need to tag a large group without targeting it as you run through, and Abyssal Drain to tag small groups from a distance that are bunched up.

When you factor in Darkside's drain, its not uncommon for a DRK to be halfway to their mana floor by the time they settle into position, before they even start AoEing. This is a big part of why BP returns are so crucial. The AoEing and the pull commonly costs roughly 9-10K MP, and a DRK at 60 has only 6926 MP. A full duration of BP in a pull of around 8 mobs can generate between 15-20K MP depending on how often they hit you, so with all that extra MP we can Dark Arts AD. People slam this a lot, but AD hits each mob for about 600-700 in Grit in my mix of slaying and melds that has about 940 or so STR. Using the 8 mob example, this is a 4800-5600 self heal every other GCD (DA is a 5s recast).

So taking into account that a big pull+BP gives you near infinite MP for 15 seconds of sustained AoE DPS and enmity and powerful self heals, not to mention all the oGCDs DRK has, BP is like 15 seconds of fucking god-mode.

This is all taking into account my playstyle which is big pulls, because I'm a DRK and for DRK big pulls = more MP = more DPS = more hate = more self-heals = awesome speed run bruh = commendations.

Now in dungeons, the idea for me at least, is to stop AoEing about 1 GCD before BP ends, and this leaves me with near full MP. DRK has a lot of evasion boosting stuff and BPs downtime is the ideal time to use this because literally the only things that can potentially deal damage to you that won't give you MP under BP other than DoTs are things that you dodge. Weaving a DA DP and DA DD in between a couple of Syphon Strikes blinds the mobs and boosts my evasion which is a massive amount of mitigation without even touching any raw mitigation CDs like Shadowskin/Wall.

In theory, 8 seconds of BP is enough for a DRK to get the MP they need back albeit very conservatively and with not much room for error/self heals/additional MP usage at the end of the duration without a lot of slow single-target Syphon combos, but if you told a DRK they had to sacrifice 7 seconds of BP they would almost assuredly choose the last 7 seconds and not the first 7 because in a big pull those first few seconds is when shit often hits the fan, by the time the first 7 seconds has passed its usually too late if something has gone wrong. You drop low and need a quick self heal, a zealous DPS has yanked aggro on a straggler, or a regen/eye for an eye/Eos has managed to pull something off you. Every piece of ranged or AoE enmity DRK has costs MP, and as stated before, its not uncommon for a DRK to be sitting on half their MP by the time they arrive at the pull's destination.

For the record, these worst case scenarios rarely happen to me, but I pull big, tag everything, and use Plunge on distant mobs to gain ground on the rest of the party so usually by the time a WHM is Holy bombing BP only has 3-4 seconds left. Either that or they're being considerate. Either way they usually get my comm. That being said, a healer is in the perfect position to see all the information they need to gauge what their holy spam is doing; they can see when the DRK pops BP and how much time is remaining and are also able to watch the DRK's actual MP as it jumps up and down. I wouldn't encourage another WHM, if I was one, to wholly disregard this information and just Holy spam steam-roll over it. However, a very experienced DRK can find ways to work around this, but DRK MP is a very unstable thing and things can go pear-shaped easily if a WHM disregards what they are doing in certain scenarios.

A good DRK will get well ahead of you and have been AoEing and self-healing for close to 15 seconds by the time you get to where he is and do your Holy-prep, but a DF DRK may not. Keeping in mind that we're not all savage raiders/speed runners I'd advise anyone to be conscious of what their team mates are doing and in general try and facilitate their maximum performance as much as yours.

Also, 15s flies by.