/p Blood Price used, WHMs do not use Holy for 15 seconds <se.1>

[Imoen]

It's not about whether Blood Price is more important than Holy or vice versa. It's about being a good team member.

Exactly, thanks for putting it into better words than I.

[Syzygian]

Responses/questions in bold.

From a WHM PoV :
It is way easier to start an AoE pull with Holy compared to "wait 15 seconds for your precious Blood Price" then Holy. I'm sorry you had a bad experience in the DF with a DRK. I've had a bad experience in the DF with literally every job in this game at one time or another. It'll pass.

At the start :
1) You have stoneskin up. With you maybe, but not every WHM in the DF. I've even met WHM's that refuse to SS because "lol it'll just fall off" yet I'm not judging you for the dregs of the folks that happen to have rolled the same job. Not every WHM in the DF even uses Holy consistently. Not every WHM uses Holy a handful of times at the start and then shuts it off like a faucet. Some drop it once, then again 15 seconds later. Its pretty erratic. Which is to be expected- you're a healer, and shit can happen that diverts your attention from a DPS rotation. But I will ALWAYS use BP. Its part of my job to keep it on CD unless there's only 2 or 3 mobs left that are close to death, or saving it a couple seconds for a unique situation like Living Liquid or the first boss of Fractal that can hit you many separate times in quick succession. Stun locking things at every opportunity is great, normally, but with me, it can waste a cooldown.
2) Most tanks pop mitigation during the end of the pull, right before the AoE hell is unleashed. Yes, as do DRKs. Between this and AD self-heals I'm typically able to survive without everything being AoE stunned. I know this because WHM is not the only healer in this game and SCHs/ASTs have been able to keep me alive with no problem through similarly large pulls without immediate spamming of an AoE stun.
3) With proper timing, Holy will land the moment everything is gathered (means those mobs lagging behind won't have a chance to attack the tank and is stunned straight away). So now there's a stray stunned out of my melee range, I'm tanking 7 other things that the DPS are going ham on, and unable to AoE... this won't end poorly at all.

After "15 seconds for your precious blood price" :
1) No more stoneskin. I appreciate the Stoneskin, but I don't think I'll be dead instantaneously without it.
2) No more mitigation (You can pop more, but good luck with the next pull!!) In A2S I have at least 1 CD up for almost 100% of the latter half of the fight. I think in a dungeon with 10-20s of downtime between the last kill of the previous pull and me gathering the mobs into position for the next, I'll be just fine.
3) Everything and its mother is hitting you at full force. Actually no. Any experienced DRK would not inflict that on his healer. We've got your back- After AD spam/self-healing during which I have BP and usually Shadowskin/Wall up, the very next thing I do after BP falls off usually is pop DA DD and/or DA DP and start dodging everything, plus maybe something piddly like Foresight or Awareness if stuff isn't close to dying just yet. This is assuming I had BP up for that time, and I'm usually left with close to full MP if I've been tanking a large pull and thus have the MP to DA those CDs, and who am I doing that for? Why, you, that's who. The MP isn't just for me, you see, but for you as well.

And for those that believe your AD spam > Holy Spam damage, that's nonsense and any non mathematically challenged person can see that. No one said that, or at least I didn't. However I can spam AD for about 6-8 casts. I dunno many WHMs that drop that many Holys. But more power to you if you do. Forget about random DF twits. My question to you is, if I am otherwise tanking a dungeon with you, expertly, (big pulls, stuff is dying fast, CDs are being popped, hate being kept, I'm not dying, you're able to DPS) and I'm pulling a huge wad of trash (using stuff that costs MP) and getting it into position whilst sitting on about half my remaining MP, and you see me pop BP, to start regenerating that MP to do AoE damage and maintain hate and self-heal and just generally manage the core mechanic of my job why would you practically spit in my face and start stunning everything, putting your brief (though admittedly powerful) AoE burst over my ability to play my job optimally in every sense- resource management, enmity, damage, self-healing, and mitigation?

As for "precious blood price" I'd say it is pretty precious seeing as its half of our MP management while tanking (the other half being Syphon Strike) and thus an essential ingredient to playing the job properly. Holy is awesome, but you aren't breaking your job's gameplay to hold off on it for a short period of time. All this is to say BP is far more of a mechanically pivotal skill to DRK than Holy is to WHM. If the DRK is putting BP up and then you start stunning everything, who's the one being deliberately antagonistic in that scenario? Every DRK with even the feeblest grasp of their job's mechanics is going to do this and no tank is going to assume every WHM is going to use the same Holy burst rotation if they use it at all, which varies greatly depending on people's gear and the size of the pull whereas the usage of Blood Price is consistent in every scenario.

But alas, as the post above mine states, this is in fact about working together as a team, and this entire thread only has relevance in dungeons, not in any meaningful content, so the adjustments people make for each other are honestly the most miniscule of sacrifices.

[chidarake]

ermm just turn off darkside between pulls if mp is low.

yeah blood price is important to mp regen and aoe but if you aren't thinking about ending the pull on or towards full mp then you are running dungeons wrong.

or

last couple of mobs left just use syphon strike a few times dropping soul eater from the combo, use carve and spit and if up use soul survivor. click of darkside on last few hits to help on mp regen if needed then as approaching new pack click it back on just outside of next pulls first target.


there is zero need to restrict anyone's dps, and there is no way you should have enmity issues against the threat being generated even with grit off.


and yeah no need for more annoying macros in this game,

[Baci]

Lol derp knights

[Imoen]

if you aren't thinking about ending the pull on or towards full mp then you are running dungeons wrong.

Is this even possible on DRK? lol

It is one thing to blow your MP when you see stuns going off and expecting bloodprice to save you next pack.

It is another entirely, to be in the middle of spending MP while BP is up and then having someone come interrupt when you have just spent the MP. (leaving you in a pretty vulnerable situation, since now you are low, siphon might not be enough to hold off those casters etc..) If I just did a DA AD with BP up, and that process is already going through and someone comes in and stuns at the exact moment when it is spent. That just sucks, especially considering all the information is available on screen at that time VIA Party list -- MP and Buffs. (and just to clarify, at least in my example C&S was not available at level 59)

Your points are valid though, under normal circumstances.

But ya, on topic, no macros please.

[Rahal]

Might as well add in what happens on BLM (My main) with the typical Pick Up Group Holy Spammer. I have to change my rotation to this:

Fire III > Quelling Strikes > Begin AoE rotation > Stun resist kicks in > Return to start because the WHM is still spamming Holy and thinks thier Personal DPS is more important than the Group DPS > watch the DRK and WHM bicker over who "caused" the wipe and try to get each other kicked > Leave and use the 30 mins to go play MGVs for a bit then return to queue as healer.

People underestimate just how ridiculously easy it is to pull aggro from any tank as a Caster. There are three other party members in the group. Just talk to each other and communicate. The DPS would like both of you to stop your e-peen flailing contest and do your jobs properly. It's nearly up there with DPS running parsers in trivial content with "Obnoxious things to do in a dungeon".

[Imoen]

Might as well add in what happens on BLM.... *snip*

:O have you actually experienced people bickering over this during a run? If so that's a bummer.

Wish people could come play with my wife and I , just bring the deeps, we get it done. lol (Lol sorry kinda bored right now, usually playing at this time.)

[chidarake]

Is this even possible on DRK? lol


It is one thing to blow your MP when you see stuns going off and expecting bloodprice to save you next pack.

It is another entirely, to be in the middle of spending MP while BP is up and then having someone come interrupt when you have just spent the MP. (leaving you in a pretty vulnerable situation, since now you are low, siphon might not be enough to hold off those casters etc..) If I just did a DA AD with BP up, and that process is already going through and someone comes in and stuns at the exact moment when it is spent. That just sucks, especially considering all the information is available on screen at that time VIA Party list -- MP and Buffs. (and just to clarify, at least in my example C&S was not available at level 59)

Your points are valid though, under normal circumstances.

But ya, on topic, no macros please.

I guess I should clarify heading towards full mp at beginning of next trash pack rather than finishing on full mp. which is totally doable in all circumstances barring personal screw ups and burning unnecessary mp at the end of the fight which I have done a few times.

also 3-4 unleashes is enough threat to hold of casters enough to not worry to much but I agree getting blood price nullified for potentially the first 10secs of it isn't great but it isn't enough to worry about in my experience as it doesn't take many hits to get your mp back to a reasonable amount so the last 5secs is usually enough when followed up by the suggestions I mentioned above.

[Imoen]

SNIP````*Adding extra text because apparently it isn't enough pre edit!*

Indeed, under normal circumstances it isn't an issue like I said.

Stuff does happen though, and unfortunately I've been in a few of them. After running PLD, holding hate on DRK felt so much easier to me, even EASIER on WAR... well war and drk are pretty close for the "feel" of enmity generation. DRK mp does scare the crap out of me, doesn't take much to put a wrench in it. In my example run; people were rushing me through before I could recover MP darkside down etc...(I wanted to generate before next pulls, just the outgoing demand of threat from the aoe dps + stun spam left me in a really crappy spot.) We got through it though, no bad words or ill will, no death, just wasn't a pleasant DRK experience.

I was mostly coming at a stance of "why the hell would you intentionally stomp on someones toes when all that information is right in front of you?" Plus I think it is good to know the rolls as much as possible, and in this case DRK is heavily reliant on mp and BP is a major generator for resources, like equilibrium (tp or hp) and less so - sheltron (mp)

Again if you see a DRK struggling with MP for whatever reason why would you go out of the way to make it harder? Know what I'm saying?

Just seems like a basic "common sense/ general battle awareness" thing to me, much like making sure your healer can handle large packs or making sure the healer has mp, or that the dps have enough tp, or dodging aoes, watching debuffs etc...

Your points though, like I said are all valid.

(just bored and making conversation) lol

[DreamWeaver]

Have you heard about the SMN/SCH/Bard complaints b4?
Where they think you have pulled everything and settled on a spot, so they cast their AoE DoTs on those places, only for you to suddenly move away? Now they sigh and have to recast their Shadow Flare, or in a Bard's case, cry.

It's pretty similar for a WHM, before any Happy Holy Days, majority of us will Divine Seal Regen + Asylum the MT, and in my personal case, Swift Cast and start raining Holy Hell.

So imagine I divine Sealed Regen + Asylum you already, and then you popped Blood Price, guess I should just sulk and spam Cure I on you then =\.

The point I want to make is, we have our own preparation to perform before Holy Bomb can commence, it's not as simple as some of you make it "just delay your holy bombs if you see Blood Price!!".