/p Blood Price used, WHMs do not use Holy for 15 seconds <se.1>

[kensatsu]

I play as war and i don't get what is the situation, but i don't see often Whm spam holy at pull, but often later,
i say the same the healer dps is high, maybe get the hate with unleash and use later Daing AD +blood price to finish the mob
Even if i think many whm think the same and use Aoe spamming in time to get the mob killed, just because it mean, i swap to cleric stance and if i do this i don't get to heal again because the mob is died.

Your problem is certainly to know if your whm will dps in cleric stance ,clear the cleric stance and heal or the other case: he will heal and use cleric stance to finish the mob.
Not all the whm act the same, don't use your maccro ask to the whm if he will dps early after pull or to achieve the mob.
try also to push dps later, when the whm dps early on pull

[Imoen]

From a WHM PoV :

for your precious blood price".

Bold was uncalled for, but I'll bite.

This all assumes YOU are the WHM. I have no idea if the healer is going to do these things or not. It is such a mixed bag, where as DRK even the bad ones will be using bloodprice because they want their MPs back. lol

And I have no idea if people were arguing about AD vs Holy damage, cuz honestly I don't give two craps or a toot about the DPS there, if Holy damage is determining the speed of a run(Damage wise) by more than a min or 2 then the party has larger issues.

I admit I'm not intimately familiar with the inner workings of a DRK, so I gotta ask :
Can it not be done the opposite as well? DRK chill on his MP, while let us WHMs unleash holy on Earth on those mobs?

Any WHM worth his/her salt will be able to pace themselves nicely and have sufficient MP for every single pull (and we don't have to rely on outside factors as well!! Unlike the problems you DRKs seem to be having where Holy = No MP = sad DRK).

Drk can indeed chill on MP besides the nonstop drain of darkside unless they turn it off, which they shouldn't because the little damage boost helps with enmity generation. Every aoe coming out of dark costs MP though. And blood price is the best/fastest way to get the return. Basically I think they meant for dark to have a "FEED ME" vibe to it. BRING THE PAIN BRING THE DARKNESS etc.. that just my interpretation of how it plays though.

[DreamWeaver]

Communication is key no?
Do you not ask your party whether to go for speed runs?
Why not go the extra mile and ask the WHM what's he's gonna do?
Performing SRs without proper communcation will often result in disaster, so "I have no idea if the healer is going to do these things or not" is due to lack of communcation, and should be treated as a separate issue.

[Imoen]

Communication is key no?
Do you not ask your party whether to go for speed runs?
Why not go the extra mile and ask the WHM what's he's gonna do?
Performing SRs without proper communcation will often result in disaster, so "I have no idea if the healer is going to do these things or not" is due to lack of communcation, and should be treated as a separate issue.

LOL have you tried talking to people in DF? half the time I'm lucky if I get a "hello" let alone communication. (maybe im just unlucky)

also this wasn't a speed run that I was referring too, it was library, for my specific example.

As far as speed runs go I always run with my wife on healer and me on tank because both of us can't stand the randomness, of coarse with our luck we always get bad dps then we change to dps and we like get the worst tank or healer in the world lol

Then once in a while, just every so often we get a really good group and im like "ah... GLORIOUS!" at the end of it.

[DreamWeaver]

If it's not SR, don't tanks do what tanks do normally do when pulling small packs? You AoE a few times to establish aggro, then start comboing, and I'm pretty sure a DRK should have something like Riot Blade from PLD to recover MP no?

Anyway my initial response is not aimed directly at you, its to inform the general public of my opinion why it's better for a WHM to Holy earlier rather than later.
Somebody else mentioned as well, Holy stun lasts 7 seconds, why not just pop your Blood Price after those 7 seconds are up?

[Imoen]

If it's not SR, don't tanks do what tanks do normally do when pulling small packs? You AoE a few times to establish aggro, then start comboing, and I'm pretty sure a DRK should have something like Riot Blade from PLD to recover MP no?

Anyway my initial response is not aimed directly at you, its to inform the general public of my opinion why it's better for a WHM to Holy earlier rather than later.
Somebody else mentioned as well, Holy stun lasts 7 seconds, why not just pop your Blood Price after those 7 seconds are up?

Yes they do, usually on a smaller pack its like unleash twice and go full on into MP combo and soul eater.

Very similar to other tanks. (Well... at least pld, flash / riot.) blood price is basically drks equivalent to pld's sheltron only more potent because they spend more MP and minus the block bit.

Only using DA with DP or the like when you have the MP to spare, the problem is really isolated to larger packs or if your DPS out gear you which is where Holy would come into play, but you are right absolutely right it is a communication thing or a lack of knowing the other classes from the other player that usually causes these issues. In my specific situation, i had an antsy WHM and I was never able to recover fully from the MP starve ,they kept just running on in ahead of me (which i know is not normal) basically forcing me into spending more MP when I never had a chance to recover.

You can totally pop it after holy, I was more referring to if it is already up there is no reason not to wait or just not holy if it looks like the DRK is low on mp. The whole party can see the MP bar and the buff from bloodprice, so my point was , why would you intentionally stomp it. I know when I'm playing healer at least my eyes are mostly glued to that list.

It is kind of like as a tank why would you intentionally pull another pack if your healers MP is starved? (and god i know some of them do) I know when I play as tank personally I try to like pause if I'm worried about the healers MP and ask if its ok to keep going (in random groups) Like wise now that I have played dark I would try to watch for if the drk was having problems.. god off topic but that is the glorious things about playing all these jobs is you get to see that stuff when you play it and remember it for later when your playing with that roll.

[Rahal]

I admit I'm not intimately familiar with the inner workings of a DRK, so I gotta ask :
Can it not be done the opposite as well? DRK chill on his MP, while let us WHMs unleash holy on Earth on those mobs?

I do have a geared DRK on my alt so can answer this.

The entirely of DRK AoE threat generation is dependant on MP. While it''s not particularly hard to grab a lead on emnity against a healer, please also remember that a DRK may well have to DA an Abyssal Drain or two during the Holy Spam if they have a Caster that wants to win a Darwin Award. I've had a particularly obnoxious Summoner that required me to be using Abyssal Drain on packs of 3 purely for the extra emnity, because I had to deal with the AoE spam while empty on MP because the WHM in turn was also spamming Holy like a lunatic and I must have found that one bloody Bard that realised you can have Foes' and Minuet up at the same time.

Of course the above is all solved with effective party communication, or even switching composition (because let's face it, queuing even Experts solo is an exercise in frustration). It is also rendered completely redundant in endgame anyway.

[Imoen]

I do have a geared DRK on my alt so can answer this.

The entirely of DRK AoE threat generation is dependant on MP. While it''s not particularly hard to grab a lead on emnity against a healer, please also remember that a DRK may well have to DA an Abyssal Drain or two during the Holy Spam if they have a Caster that wants to win a Darwin Award. I've had a particularly obnoxious Summoner that required me to be using Abyssal Drain on packs of 3 purely for the extra emnity, because I had to deal with the AoE spam while empty on MP because the WHM in turn was also spamming Holy like a lunatic and I must have found that one bloody Bard that realised you can have Foes' and Minuet up at the same time.

Of course the above is all solved with effective party communication, or even switching composition (because let's face it, queuing even Experts solo is an exercise in frustration). It is also rendered completely redundant in endgame anyway.

Off topic : LOL this is the exact reason I am afraid to get my SMNs 200 weapon. Even with quelling I peel crap all the time just doing normal rotations. (in DF groups) Well that, and I don't raid with my SMN so no point in getting a better one. Least not yet.

[cold52]

honestly this shouldnt be a big issue if your doing a big pull just go in start abyssal spam should have enough mp for 5-6 of them (carve and spit should be used for mp in aoe after your at around 2k mp throw on blood price by then the healer should stop any holy reguardless whether they have room for it or not as its more mp efficent to either heal or aero 3 stone 3 at that point and should have no trouble ending every pull with roughly 4k mp which is more then enough to get back to full mp for the next pull or boss.

that being said if a healer decides hes gonna screw a drk out of mp cause he wants to holy when he wants i for one have no trouble wasting time after the pull to get enough mp for the next pull which in the end will take MUCH LONGER.

[carbonx]

The Blood Price/Holy debacle should really only be an issue for the first pull.

If I pop Blood Price and see the WHM start their Holy spam, I chide myself because the healer is going above and beyond providing DPS. I typically wait in the future pulls for the stun lock before throwing it on, and avoid using too many AD's or DA for for the 10ish seconds it takes for stun resist to form on the mobs.

Alternatively, if I'm on WHM, I tend to swap out to Blizzard II if I notice the DRK is going to pull with Blood Price regardless of the fact I'm trying to DPS.

The real message here is: Be flexible. It's not about whether Blood Price is more important than Holy or vice versa. It's about being a good team member.